scottf200
Well-Known Member
Confused by your remarks because he has a couple videos out already and has maybe even 5 CTs that they are able to drive.
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Tesla's Supercharger Team was recently laid off. We discuss what this means for the company on today's TMC Podcast streaming live at 1PM PDT. You can watch on X or on YouTube where you can participate in the live chat.
First charge curve data I've seen.
- Thread starter Daniel in SD
- Start date
GhostSkater
Member
I went on to find out what the charging curve would have to look like for the 15% to 85% in 18 minutes from Lars, this is what I arrived at
I'm skeptical it will be improved by that much, meaning I don't think trucks that are on customer hands right now will ever get close to it, else the launch charging curve wouldn't be this bad. Even on future ones seems a big departure from what Tesla charging curves looks like, ignoring the LFP Blade Model Y from Berlin
We'll see
I'm skeptical it will be improved by that much, meaning I don't think trucks that are on customer hands right now will ever get close to it, else the launch charging curve wouldn't be this bad. Even on future ones seems a big departure from what Tesla charging curves looks like, ignoring the LFP Blade Model Y from Berlin
We'll see
Range extender will increase capacity to 150% which will allow 10%-80% in 18 minutes on V4.
The extender will increase peak power, but unless the cells are different the C rate and % SOC rate will be the same (assuming post isn't power limited).
If the SOC gauge goes to 150% then 10%-80% will be faster!
Is there confirmation that V4 is limited to 350kW? I assumed it would be 500kW (same current at 250kW charger and double the voltage).
If the SOC gauge goes to 150% then 10%-80% will be faster!
Love it!The Tesla emergency responders guide calls a V4 post with V3 looking cabinet V4.
The V4 post isn't limited to 350kW, it maxes out at 650A 1000V (IIRC).
The in the field V3 cabinets are limited to about 350kW on the grid side, but can be paralleled on their DC bus to >900kW. Their post outputs have been limited to 250kw and 500V. Similar looking cabinets run the Semi Megachargers at above 500V, but it is yet to be seen if the outputs modules are different, software locked, wired in series, or some combination therein.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Seems shortsighted for Tesla to install anything slow, like 350kW, when Cybertruck exists.
With range extender they will need to push 550kW into the truck to make it a compelling choice (really don’t have to be that high but with non-range extended it clearly needs to go to 400kW minimum, so 550kW comes for free and is a benefit of REX - and also have to be forward looking for future cell density increases which allegedly are coming “soon”).
So hopefully Tesla is aggressive on this, as the capital costs are extremely minimal, and start with ~650kW available to back up what the post can support.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I’m not talking about the current pack (limits). I’m just talking about what is needed to make the truck usable (meaning compelling).
Current pack (limits) wouldn’t even get to 350kW, probably, just extrapolating curves upwards to 5-10%.
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They'll need larger connections to the grid, postless cabinets, transformers, and/or Megapacks to pull that off. That's not cheap.
Megapacks can be adapted to also serve as chargers, but placement is harder.
Why 400kW? Pack is only a bit larger than S/X.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
250kW*123kWh/78kWh = 394kW (up to 25%)
Have to maintain that - remember Model 3 is only just fast enough for road trips. Any slower and it will suck (I’m not correcting for actual ratio of consumption per mile for the two vehicles at freeway speed and assume it will be 123/78 which suggests around 470Wh/mi for Cybertruck. If it’s much worse than that it’ll need even higher charging speed of course…though it seems fairly close).
S likely the fastest charging now but presumably we have not seen what it is capable of (I don’t pay any attention to S charging curves but it should do at least 310kW to 25%).
Grid connections (etc.) will need to be beefed up. This is the future. Current power delivery capacity is super tiny compared to what will be needed in future (off by an order of magnitude I would guess). May as well get it done.
The requirements at the vehicle just push back up the chain - so it is what it is.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
(Maybe would get to 490kW with REX, for an instant, with current curves, tapering immediately from peak at 5%-10%.)
Semi charging is currently configured with two charging cabinets per post, with an output of up to 750 kW. Each cabinet has an AC input of 387 kVA.
Tesla has a Supercharger installation for charging cars on tractor trailers (for transport) that is configured with two posts per cabinet instead of the usual four posts per cabinet. This allows for greater power output per post when the site is full.
Unless Tesla plans on increasing the cabinet to post ratio for V4 sites, I don’t see any meaningful power increases from V3 sites. You might be able to get 350 kW if you’re the only person on a charging cabinet, but power will be limited by the site transformer when multiple cars are charging, just like it is now.
Tesla has a Supercharger installation for charging cars on tractor trailers (for transport) that is configured with two posts per cabinet instead of the usual four posts per cabinet. This allows for greater power output per post when the site is full.
Unless Tesla plans on increasing the cabinet to post ratio for V4 sites, I don’t see any meaningful power increases from V3 sites. You might be able to get 350 kW if you’re the only person on a charging cabinet, but power will be limited by the site transformer when multiple cars are charging, just like it is now.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yep, not good. Obviously a secondary problem to the current awful charge curves, but even that 350kW limit is going to be a 12% penalty up to about 25% SOC (and a bit less, and decreasing, penalty up to wherever Model 3 hits 222kW, where the idealized Model3-like pack would become the limit). Anyway that artificial capping is going to be painful when it comes to waiting a couple minutes more than you’re used to on a stop!
And it’ll be catastrophic if you have to share (even with Model 3, charging stops at V2 are catastrophic due to long start times, unreliable connections, slow peak speeds, and having to rapidly move spots while charging to avoid sharing (when it makes sense, which unfortunately is often, but have to do math in your head about whether current 72kW rate which may increase to 107kW soon will make sense vs. moving somewhere where you may get 144kW)), so they need to act to avoid that issue. V3 superchargers are great, with their lack of sharing or any limit on the 250kW output in most scenarios.
Again, the current pack limits pose much bigger issues right now, but this will be the next complaint if they come in low with the 350kW limit (unless they can move the taper up to much higher SOC). Need the 400kW or 500kW for bragging rights anyway!
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GhostSkater
Member
Something to consider
Tesla hasn't released any true V4 Superchargers so far, even though Cybertruck is released and ramping, it's not unreasonable to speculate that the Cybertruck (or other vehicles) that could take advantage of it are quite well in the future, and the 15-85% in 18 minutes will happen right after FSD
With the current charging curve a V4 is totally useless, it will save less than 5 minutes, maybe even less, on a 41 minutes 10-80% charging session
Tesla hasn't released any true V4 Superchargers so far, even though Cybertruck is released and ramping, it's not unreasonable to speculate that the Cybertruck (or other vehicles) that could take advantage of it are quite well in the future, and the 15-85% in 18 minutes will happen right after FSD
With the current charging curve a V4 is totally useless, it will save less than 5 minutes, maybe even less, on a 41 minutes 10-80% charging session
400-500 kW isn’t necessary. If they can average 300 kW for 15 minutes, that’s 75 kWh of energy. At 2 miles per kWh, that’s two full hours of driving at 70 MPH. I’d be perfectly happy with that.
They might be able to get there with the range extender, but I doubt they’ll be able to do it on a 123 kWh pack.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yeah. For 123kWh: That is 64% of the 117kWh above 0%. So on a charge from 5% to 69%….average 300kW.
When does the taper start?
For 173kWh assuming no change in buffer size, it is 45%. So average 300kW from 5-50% is what you are saying.
More doable. Problem is 1) it requires the range extender and 2) can’t be done with current pack even with REX, based on curves here showing it would taper from 350kW starting at 20% to 160kW at 50%. So best case (optimistic) 255kW average from 20-50% and 350kW from 5-20%. That is only 283kW average.
Only way you rectify above with current packs and limits (with REX!) is push more power.
And why would you not want that or think it isn’t needed? It is like saying 250kW is not needed for Model 3 (definitely not true!).
Obviously with higher pack limits maybe you could get away with it, but my main point again: it is slower than current vehicles, which are just barely fast enough for road trips. (Yeah you can do slower but the probability of waiting on the car rises significantly.)
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To clarify, my hope is that Tesla can improve the charging curve of the 4680 cells. Ideally, they’d be able to carry higher power for longer, like Hyundai/Kia vehicles do. Unless that happens, the Cybertruck will continue to be lackluster in the charging department.
GhostSkater
Member
I think this shines some light on why the charge curve is the way it is today, minimum one that makes it somewhat on par with other EV trucks. MVP
All are bad
All are bad
