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But the debt isn't 6%. Why close debt if some/most of those are in the 1-3% range when interest rates are in the 6-8% range?

I think someone posted they have FCF of 100-150 billion a year. They will generate and print more cash every year.

Do you have a mortgage? I do under 3%; should I purchase that debt even if I can? We can get guaranteed 5%+ from any CD/treasury now. They also lower their PE by buying back stock. I assume the army of financial folks at Apple (and Tesla or most companies) knows what they are doing. Even Elon mentioned a buyback on the call. If Elon does it, that's genius, but anyone else, and that's dumb?
AAPL has debt for one major purpose: to balance income and expense for foreign exchange. They do not use debt for any other purposes.
Tesla, similarly, has had little reason to borrow in recent years, other than to help offset FX risks.
These are long established corporate practices to balance FX risks.
AAPL is only the most glaringly obvious example…
 
Actually not so much those things but two things: taxes and minimal zoning. Of course both of those do subsume, perhaps, to givernsnce.
Very wealthy individuals often redomicile to Florida for two reason: minimal personal taxes and general ‘household’ rules. That does not necessarily mean such individual spend much time there..
Corporate legal domicile frequently has not connection to actual business conduct. That is why many corporations no longer e namoured of Delaware Chancery Court relocate to Nevada where Corporate domicile is consistently hospitable.
As for choosing Texas? I only can quote my own tax attorney, onetime holder of TSLA. “What were they thinking?”. He argues that the new Texas Business Courts:

…Were deigned for explicit political control.

AAPL has debt for one major purpose: to balance income and expense for foreign exchange. They do not use debt for any other purposes.
Tesla, similarly, has had little reason to borrow in recent years, other than to help offset FX risks.
These are long established corporate practices to balance FX risks.
AAPL is only the most glaringly obvious example…
I am always amazed at the proof you present that humans love to design complex systems....just because.

One would think we could stop...but the "arms race" for even more complex systems to either "trade/hide/obscure" continues unabated.
 
Actually not so much those things but two things: taxes and minimal zoning. Of course both of those do subsume, perhaps, to givernsnce.
Very wealthy individuals often redomicile to Florida for two reason: minimal personal taxes and general ‘household’ rules. That does not necessarily mean such individual spend much time there..
Corporate legal domicile frequently has not connection to actual business conduct. That is why many corporations no longer e namoured of Delaware Chancery Court relocate to Nevada where Corporate domicile is consistently hospitable.
As for choosing Texas? I only can quote my own tax attorney, onetime holder of TSLA. “What were they thinking?”. He argues that the new Texas Business Courts:

…Were deigned for explicit political control.

Unless Tesla has some inside knowledge it seems like moving incorporation to Texas has a potential to be fraught with exposure to unforeseen risks, compared to Nevada.

There is always the chance that Texas will make their bid for such status a priority and do their job well for businesses, but this is not proven the way it is in Nevada.

Obviously, states can make of the business environment what they will. Delaware is a perfect example of how it can change suddenly and necessitate a move after they have demonstrated abuse of their relationship with business interests after having been the poster-child for incorporation over decades.

If the vote tally favors the Tesla BoD's Texas recommendation at the Annual Meeting, the die would be cast. Then, it will be up to Texas legislators and judiciary to demonstrate their commitment to becoming a preferred corporate domicile.

At least, should problems arise, moving incorporation to Nevada at a later date will remain an option.
 
When I buy a car, these are my reasons:
  1. Years 4-10 I can put on robotaxi network and make dollars
  2. Years 1-4 it drives itself
  3. It's a Tesla with all the other bells and whistles
Leasing is a non starter for me as I can't guarantee robotaxi pay to play. If Rivian get Tesla FSD, I won't look in detail as they are a bit big for RTs in UK. Yes, I'm different to most.
I buy #3. Love it and I now love driving for the 1st time in my life.
As to #2, I have FSD latest release. It tried to cause serious accidents every other time I use it. It misses highway speed limit signs, exits the highway at 65mph ignoring 30mph speed limit signs. It's not relaxing to use unless on a long highway drive with no exits.
And I doubt #1 happenens within this decade.
Nonetheless I am a HOLD because of EV dominance despite 2024/5 hiatus and especially because of the long range AI component monitized well before robotaxi dry dreams.
I would consider leasing a Model 3 because I I love the refresh & believe at lease termination the NEXT car model built has a good chance of having the required HW for actual FSD whenever in the future the SW really works.
 
Unless one LEASES the M3--all leases get the $7.5k EV tax credit which brings the M3 down to $299/month...an absolute steal.

Leasing has always been a tiny % of units moved for Tesla- in part because they still won't allow purchase at end of lease.... this worked out great on the 3 very initially as all the 3-year returns came back to them right when used car prices were crazy high- leading to a nice profitable shot in the arm on Tesla reselling used vehicles... but that's passed now, and with the tax credit not available anytime soon for purchase on a 3 it seems like allowing lease buyout, at least on the 3, would make a lot of sense if/when they get the Model 3 ramp issue solved in the US.
 
I am always amazed at the proof you present that humans love to design complex systems....just because.

One would think we could stop...but the "arms race" for even more complex systems to either "trade/hide/obscure" continues unabated.

This reminds me of reading a book, maybe it was called "The Fair Tax Book" and it mentioned how a significant amount of business profits go into managing the complex accounting necessary for "legally" reducing taxes, much as you alluded to, as this circus act is a very complex system.

The book promoted the idea of changing the current Income Tax to a national Sales Tax, collected at the cash register and managed by the states. (which would require passing a constitutional amendment to implement)

This scheme would reduce the burden upon businesses committing significant resources to tax management, make it nearly impossible for anyone to evade taxation by any means. When you buy something from a business, you pay the tax. Which would be collected at state level and forwarded to the US/DC folks.

This would drastically simplify collection and processing of the tax by eliminating the byzantine maze of regulations and staff currently employed to support the existing scheme. The filing of a "tax return" would become an oddity of the past. As would the prosecution, fines, etc. people have to deal with as it is.

The profits saved could be used to increase benefits for employees and/or reduce prices to their customers. This would be a staggeringly significant amount of costs for non-productive tax management processes that could be eliminated.

Of course, this would never work. There are too many influential people whose careers on both sides of the system would be made redundant. They would have to find more productive ways to apply their finely-honed talents that would no longer be needed.


However, Tony Seba, Elon, and others see a world of abundance on the horizon. One established through the development of reduced energy costs and the application of robotic and AI based labor becoming dominant. Taking a significant amount of cost out of the system in ways that don't require getting those depending upon the tax system for employment to buy in.

This scenario would achieve essentially the same result as that idea outlined in the book, because the lower costs of energy and labor will reduce the impact of taxes simply due to there being less money in play. This abundance would also support a workable version of Universal Basic Income assuring reduced or total elimination of poverty concerns.

This convergence toward abundance is happening now, and because it will be based in reduced costs across the board it will be embraced and adopted as a matter of course in order to remain competitive in the business environment.

HODL
 
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This reminds me of reading a book, maybe it was called "The Fair Tax Book" and it mentioned how a significant amount of business profits go into managing the complex accounting necessary for "legally" reducing taxes, much as you alluded to, as this circus act is a very complex system.

The book promoted the idea of changing the current Income Tax to a national Sales Tax, collected at the cash register and managed by the states. (which would require passing a constitutional amendment to implement)

This scheme would reduce the burden upon businesses committing significant resources to tax management, make it nearly impossible for anyone to evade taxation by any means. When you buy something from a business, you pay the tax.

This would drastically simplify collection and processing of the tax by eliminating the byzantine maze of regulations and staff currently employed to support the existing scheme. The filing of a "tax return" would become an oddity of the past.

The profits saved could be used to increase benefits for employees and/or reduce prices to their customers. This would be a staggeringly significant amount of costs for non-productive tax management processes that could be eliminated.

Of course, this would never work. There are too many influential people whose careers on both sides of the system would be made redundant. They would have to find more productive ways to apply their long-honed talents that would no longer be needed.

It would also never work because a blanket flat sales tax is horrifically regressive and hurts the poor far far worse than the rich.

There's nothing remotely "fair" about the fair tax, and this has been explained in considerable detail elsewhere (and isn't really appropriate for this thread- but the short version is- The poor spend ~100% of their income, so they'd be taxed on ~100% of it.

The rich spend a much smaller %, which is why they have $ left over- and would generally have even MORE of it left over under such a system.

And to make up for the amount lost by not taxing high incomes the rate of the flat rate would be pretty high too.


Every national-sales-tax scheme that's at all practical and useful (VATs in many countries for example) only work when you have either (or a combo of):

A litany of exceptions of things that aren't subject to that tax (or are taxed in a more complex manner)
or
A rebate provided back to lower income people to make up for them being taxed far more heavily

Further- all such countries have a much, much, stronger social safety net assisting low income folks than any we're willing to pay for here in the US.


I'm not even saying such a system isn't better than ours-in many ways it is, in others there's arguments it's not-- but it's never (in any working system anyway) nearly as simple as you suggest.

And as you can see in the EU, Canada, and elsewhere- even folks who DO have such a system still ALSO have to layer more complexity on top because governments need tools to encourage or discourage certain things.... for example encouraging home ownership, or encouraging the purchase of electric vehicles, or encouraging having children.
 
Tesla Supercharger group: RUD (Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly).
Too soon.

I don’t know what the thinking or plan here is. And I’m in California so don’t experience any gaps going up and down the state, as I often do on road trips. But my wife is highly concerned as the number one worry for EV adoption is range anxiety. Anything that would seem to put the availability of reliable fast charging at risk can’t be good for long-term adoption. It doesn’t all have to be on Tesla, but there needs to be a visible way forward.
 
Too soon.

I don’t know what the thinking or plan here is. And I’m in California so don’t experience any gaps going up and down the state, as I often do on road trips. But my wife is highly concerned as the number one worry for EV adoption is range anxiety. Anything that would seem to put the availability of reliable fast charging at risk can’t be good for long-term adoption. It doesn’t all have to be on Tesla, but there needs to be a visible way forward.

This move seems tactical. One that puts the burden where it should be placed, upon the shoulders of those best in a position to profit from installing a supercharger at their location.

Tesla only has to provide the hardware, a support contract for the hardware, and the network infrastructure to process customer purchases of electrons.

Let those who can best be rewarded from making the effort for site selection, permitting, installation, etc. do that work. They know their local systems better than Tesla ever will be able to.
 
  • Disagree
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When I buy a car, these are my reasons:
  1. Years 4-10 I can put on robotaxi network and make dollars
  2. Years 1-4 it drives itself
  3. It's a Tesla with all the other bells and whistles
Leasing is a non starter for me as I can't guarantee robotaxi pay to play. If Rivian get Tesla FSD, I won't look in detail as they are a bit big for RTs in UK. Yes, I'm different to most.
This is in the US; UK and EU likely have different lease/buy incentives.

Given the low cost of a base M3, the $7.5k US EV incentive has a massive impact on the lease cost, driving it to $299/month.

Also, I suggest that to be categorically against leasing is imprudent, especially when the net result (ESPECIALLY after the many other savings in petrol, oil changes, etc., are included) is a cost that less than what some spend at Starbucks in a given month . . . .

Generally best to avoid absolutes as situation change often requires adaption/new mindsets.
 
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This move seems tactical. One that puts the burden where it should be placed, upon the shoulders of those best in a position to profit from installing a supercharger at their location.

Tesla only has to provide the hardware, a support contract for the hardware, and the network infrastructure to process customer purchases of electrons.

Let those who can best be rewarded from making the effort for site selection, permitting, installation, etc. do that work. They know their local systems better than Tesla ever will be able to.
I bet you read..."The rational optimist"

The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves The Rational Optimist - Google Search
 
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Reactions: JoRoMo
You make it sound like the cybertruck is objectively a failure. Where is the evidence for this? Is it late? Definitely, but to quote a famous japanese video game maker

The cybertruck will be around a long time. There seems to be no shortage of demand, and reviews from actual real CT owners are exceptionally good. Even reviews from mainstream auto review sources are extremely good, despite tesla's history of zero advertising and elon's controversial personality.

We still don't know just how many of those reservations will be converted to sales, but there is zero sign of it being a problem. They are still only accepting configuration from the super-expensive 'foundation series' orders, and even at that price, they have not run out of orders yet. The only recall or issue of note has been a pedal cover, since fixed. In the meantime triple-a-list megacelebrities are falling over themselves to be pictured with the vehicle, a vehicle we all know they had to pay top dollar for, which they are then promoting at zero cost to Tesla.

You might be right, but I am placing a big bet on the cybertruck indeed being a business school case study, due to its massive success with zero marketing.
"Delays are temporary. Mediocrity is forever."

- Victor Ireland, Working Designs