Tesla v. Diesel in Europe, out of General.

[schonelucht]

If I have to pay 0.30 Euro per kWh, I would switch to solar the next day (btw. I am switching to solar anyway, just not urgent). On average my Model 3 takes 218 Wh per mile, that's 136 Wh per km. Is this the number most Model 3s get? I drive 50% local, 50% highway.

Many in Europe live in dense urban cities where you need to use a streetside charger. Prices are set by the company running the charger and it's quite possible that your average prices goes that high. Switching to solar will not help. Still, for the large majority it is cheaper to drive an electric car, but surprisingly the gains are not that important, especially since we drive less in the first place.

 

[oneday]

but surprisingly the gains are not that important.

Speak for yourself, all my European friends specifically talk about the cost advantages of going electric.

 

[NicoV]

Let's say you need 6 l diesel to drive (an Audi A4 or BMW 320) 100 km, that's about 8 Euro here, or 8 eurocent / km

Let's say a Model 3 gets 6 km per kWh, which cost me 24 eurocent, i.e. 4 eurocent / km.

One can fiddle a bit with the numbers, but the Model 3 is clearly cheaper to drive, on the order of a factor 2.

PS. ICE's then has additional CO2 tax, oil changes and so on...
PPS. When I know my total electricity consumption, incl. my M3, the next project will be to dimension a solar panel installation, which will partially finance itself via savings on electricity for the M3. No options like that with ICE.

Also, comparing with diesel is not a fair comparison, since more and more cities block diesel (and certainly old diesels). Comparing with gas would be better, as you’re then comparing cars that are allowed anywhere.

 

[lklundin]

At least for Germany - here you go:

A Diesel consumes say 5 l of fuel for 100 km, @ 1.20 Euro per l: 6.00 Euro per 100 km

The MS requires 200 Wh per km, 20 kWh per 100 km @ 0.30 Euro per kWh (residential rate): 6.00 Euro per 100 km

Both figures include the various taxes on energy in Germany.

Electricity can be much cheaper if produced by your rooftop solar panels. My personal marginal cost of rooftop solar is 0.13 Euro per kWh.



But remember:

This is only the direct fuel costs. The advantages in performance, much lower other costs etc. are not compared here and would all come out in favor of electric.

Never mind performance: different ballpark.

Excuse me, but what kind of ICE comparable to a Model S needs just 5 l diesel to go 100 km ?

My Audi A8 would take around 9 l diesel per 100 km.

Also, this year and the past few ones, I pay 0.24 Euro/kWh electricity.

 

[mrdoubleb]

Just as a data point, from Hungary... there is a multiplier of ~10 between the average price of diesel per liter and electricity per kw.

electricity: normal rate is 12 Euro cents or 14 USD cents per kw

diesel: 1.17-1.37 EUR per liter, or 1.36-1.60 USD per liter (5-6 USD per gallon).

I`ll let you guess which one is cheaper, diesel or electric.

 

[Saghost]

Just as a data point, from Hungary... there is a multiplier of ~10 between the average price of diesel per liter and electricity per kw.

electricity: normal rate is 12 Euro cents or 14 USD cents per kw

diesel: 1.17-1.37 EUR per liter, or 1.36-1.60 USD per liter (5-6 USD per gallon).

I`ll let you guess which one is cheaper, diesel or electric.

Assuming you mean kWh rather than kW (energy, not power,) that's actually pretty close to equal pricing in terms of energy content - a liter of diesel contains around 10 kWh of chemical energy.

Of course, modern electric motors are much more efficient than any internal combustion engine yet designed, so the cost per mile will still be much lower.

 

[wooter]

So why isn't Sweden a 50% EV market share country yet?

Availability of EV's with reasonable range and reasonable luxury at reasonable prices.

Don't forget that most diesel drivers in Europe are also used to effective ranges of 450 miles and more. On average, a diesel car in Europe can easily do 550 miles on one tank, and people keep using that as an indicator, because most recent EV's on the market with ranges approaching these numbers are delivered with single phase chargers which means it would take 12-14 hours to charge your car again. Not to mention that 50kW quick chargers are in some countries quite rare and cost easily 60 cents per kWh.

This makes it that if you get an EV now, you're realistically paying more on the car and quick charging rates, for the inconvenience of having shorter ranges and trouble finding charging locations.

If you get a Tesla (or anything with a 3 phase charger and access to the Tesla supercharger network), and the Tesla Wall Connector, your car would run about 2/3rds of the price of a comparable diesel car. Except the Tesla is more expensive, but the Tesla has tax incentives making it cheaper to run than a comparable diesel car. A Model S 90D is about the same TCO as a BMW 530d.

 

[mrdoubleb]

Assuming you mean kWh rather than kW (energy, not power,) that's actually pretty close to equal pricing in terms of energy content - a liter of diesel contains around 10 kWh of chemical energy.

Of course, modern electric motors are much more efficient than any internal combustion engine yet designed, so the cost per mile will still be much lower.

Yes, kWh, sorry.

With my annual driving and petrol prices (not diesel), i have calculated about $1,900 of savings annually compared to my current ICE car. (Fuel savings + oil changes; generally lower maintenance / less service costs not counted as that is quite vague. I consider that the cherry on top). Just needed to get my apartment building to vote on allowing EV charging in the garage, which just happened, so i am already looking...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Availability of EV's with reasonable range and reasonable luxury at reasonable prices.

Don't forget that most diesel drivers in Europe are also used to effective ranges of 450 miles and more. On average, a diesel car in Europe can easily do 550 miles on one tank, and people keep using that as an indicator, because most recent EV's on the market with ranges approaching these numbers are delivered with single phase chargers which means it would take 12-14 hours to charge your car again. Not to mention that 50kW quick chargers are in some countries quite rare and cost easily 60 cents per kWh.

This makes it that if you get an EV now, you're realistically paying more on the car and quick charging rates, for the inconvenience of having shorter ranges and trouble finding charging locations.

If you get a Tesla (or anything with a 3 phase charger and access to the Tesla supercharger network), and the Tesla Wall Connector, your car would run about 2/3rds of the price of a comparable diesel car. Except the Tesla is more expensive, but the Tesla has tax incentives making it cheaper to run than a comparable diesel car. A Model S 90D is about the same TCO as a BMW 530d.

Sweden also had much more limited electric vehicle incentives. But there's a new "bonus-malus" program just come with significant PEV incentives with a chunk paid for by increasing taxes on conventional vehicles. PEV was up to 6% already so expect the take rate to go higher.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Yes, kWh, sorry.

With my annual driving and petrol prices (not diesel), i have calculated about $1,900 of savings annually compared to my current ICE car. (Fuel savings + oil changes; generally lower maintenance / less service costs not counted as that is quite vague. I consider that the cherry on top). Just needed to get my apartment building to vote on allowing EV charging in the garage, which just happened, so i am already looking...

That's something about charging at apartments: where there's demand, it will happen. The more demand there is, the better the economics.

 

[12Pack]

At least for Germany - here you go:

A Diesel consumes say 5 l of fuel for 100 km, @ 1.20 Euro per l: 6.00 Euro per 100 km

The MS requires 200 Wh per km, 20 kWh per 100 km @ 0.30 Euro per kWh (residential rate): 6.00 Euro per 100 km

Both figures include the various taxes on energy in Germany.

Electricity can be much cheaper if produced by your rooftop solar panels. My personal marginal cost of rooftop solar is 0.13 Euro per kWh.



But remember:

This is only the direct fuel costs. The advantages in performance, much lower other costs etc. are not compared here and would all come out in favor of electric.

Never mind performance: different ballpark.

As other have stated - 5l/100km is 56 mpg. You are talking VW polo tdi - claimed diesel emissions-level. Hardly a valid comparison.
BTW, UK is about $1.6/l with 0.2$/KwH. For me, works out to a 70% savings compared to my previous Range Rover at 30 mpg.

 

[mspohr]

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/g...-older-diesels-automakers-suppliers-disagree/

What to do about all of the polluting diesels? Car makers would prefer you buy a new car even though retrofit kits are available