I'm sure you've been frustrated getting stuck behind a slow driver before. How would you feel if every other car on the road was driving through intersections the way FSD currently does? It's NOT acceptable and not human-like either. I would like to blend in with the rest of traffic, not be a public nuisance and inspire contempt for autonomous driving.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
What is not acceptable is this human behavior of anger and frustration. Do I feel it? Yes. Should I be feeling it given the amount of problem this incident created? Absolutely not, it's assanine to feel this much anger for something so inconsequential.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Yeah...I find that the overwhelming majority of the times I disengage or intervene in v12.3.6 it's not because I had to. It's because the car was taking too long at a stop sign, driving too slow (or occasionally too fast) or because it stayed behind another slow driver when I wanted to go faster and pass them.
That needs to be considered when looking at the disengagement rate. If FSD's disengagement rate is x, keep it mind that there's a driver right there using the system as driver's assistance. If they are in a hurry, impatient, or don't want to slow other drivers on the road, there will often be an disengagement counted that would otherwise not have happened in a Robotaxi situation.
That's not to say there aren't a lot of issues to fix still. But I think calling it useless or worthless is a pretty big stretch. It's actually a pretty miraculous system that's better than anything else offered by any other OEM.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
You are absolutely right. The difference of a few seconds is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Having said that though, the reality is that lots of drivers are impatient, and road rage is a real thing. So minimizing how much one "annoys" other drivers, as silly as it sounds, does indeed contribute to safety in the form of reduced road-rage incidents.
It's human nature. It's not changing anytime soon and it needs to be factored in. Besides, from a tech point of view, I want the car to drive efficiently and not pass up on perfectly safe opportunities to advance. Whether or not they are disengagement/intervention worthy, they are still mistakes.
Yes! Why are we acting like humans around here? We must take our medicine. When FSD craps on us, be thankful, and ask for more.
Useless is a harsh word, but from a utility point of view, with autonomous driving it's really all or nothing. If it has an even modest chance of making a critical mistake, that means the rider must be engaged in the driving process, and thus cannot use that time to be productive. From a tech point of view, I agree 100% that FSD is a marvel that accomplishes things no other system even attempts.
Actually, I have to add that it does offer some utility as a driver assistance (not replacement) when driving in unfamiliar areas.
It does a terrible job in busy parking lots.
In a parking garage, Navigation thought it was driving on the street outside the garage. I don't know what it would have done if I had enabled FSD, because it seemed like a bad idea to try it. This was exiting after an event, so traffic was bumper-to-bumper going down the ramps with no room for error.
On a 6-lane UPL, it waited so long to cross the near lanes, and moved so slowly, that it had to stop in the middle of them because before it reached the far lanes, traffic was approaching from the right.
Why would it need to go 15% above the limit at all times?
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I just returned from a ~300 mile trip. V12.3.6 continues to struggle when environmental stimuli increases. Indecisiveness for yellow light intersections - abrupt brief decel and then quickly accelerate through the yellow. Crazy lane change attempts. Misinterprets roadway. Accelerates into tailgating a lead vehicle at traffic lights, followed by a laggy (it would be interesting to measure) regen/decel resulting in the lead vehicle pulling away forcing another excess acceleration. And the usual dry wipes, hard braking, excess acceleration, refuse to change lanes after manual turn signal, and the never ending max speed control snafu.
For me 12.3.6 has the same problem I’ve had the past few releases. In my home county it’s mostly 2 lane rural roads. At many points where there is a turnoff of the road there has been a bypass lane added so you don’t have to wait for left turning traffic. FSD dives into these bypass lanes and comes out again every time it sees one. Really frustrating and makes you look like an idiot to other drivers. I don’t know what the thing is thinking as you can see it pick the the whole route on the screen so it can see the new lane is is only a few feet long and there is no point to entering it and then immediately be forced to merge back.
Humans are flawed. A robot will wait until there's zero chance of collision. A human will wait until there's an acceptable risk due to a lack of patience. Right now humans want the robot to take similar acceptable risk, then demonize it if something bad happens, but also want a crash free future.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
You're right, it would probably make it 99% of the time. So do absolutely terrible human drivers, even drunk ones. The 99% statistic doesn't make FSD a good or safe driver.
A significant number of accidents are caused by two cars making otherwise-minor mistakes at the same time and place. If only one car makes a mistake, the other car can usually take evasive action to avoid a collision. But just as the average driver breaks the law on average 1000 times for each time receiving a traffic ticket, it's likely that you'll make 1000 minor traffic mistakes before getting unlucky enough that another driver also makes one at the same time and place, leading to a collision. The point is, in this same situation, if you DON'T make the minor mistake, the accident probably won't happen. And that's why small mistakes matter.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
I've experienced the same thing, for both v12 on city streets and v11 on highways. It seems to strongly prefer the leftmost and rightmost lanes, leading it to frequently make such mistakes (for both left-turnoffs and right-turnoffs), when arguably the default bias should be (when a lane splits) to move toward the middle lanes (away from the leftmost/rightmost lanes) unless making or about to make a turn. It sometimes does this even while the nav visualization / path planner still shows the correct lane/path.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
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