Tesla still doesn't know about the Rozelle Interchange

[gazpachopolice]

The Rozelle Interchange in Sydney opened on 26 November 2023, and I'm now typing this in May 2024, half a year later. While you can see the tunnels on the map, Tesla still doesn't know how to drive through them: every time I do, navigation freaks out and repeatedly tells me to turn left/right through the tunnel wall into surface streets, and I can't use TACC/Autosteer either because it's getting the wrong speed limits from those surface roads, not the tunnel.

Is everybody else in the same boat, and if yes, is there any way to direct feedback to Tesla about this? Driving a Model 3 with the latest update.

 

[donmac]

The Rozelle Interchange in Sydney opened on 26 November 2023, and I'm now typing this in May 2024, half a year later. While you can see the tunnels on the map, Tesla still doesn't know how to drive through them: every time I do, navigation freaks out and repeatedly tells me to turn left/right through the tunnel wall into surface streets, and I can't use TACC/Autosteer either because it's getting the wrong speed limits from those surface roads, not the tunnel.

Is everybody else in the same boat, and if yes, is there any way to direct feedback to Tesla about this? Driving a Model 3 with the latest update.

Due to the news about traffic, I have assigned the Rozelle interchange as a "no go" area, but if the behaviour is like the north connex on Tuesday, there is a problem with "GPS drift".

In other words, you eventually get far enough away from the maps idea of where the tunnel is that the car will think you are now on the surface. I was southbound, and it wanted me to do a u-turn on a surface street just before emerging from the end of the tunnel!

The other part is whether the Tom-Tom maps were updated before the snapshot was taken for the current nav version. As I don't drive that area, I don't know if things are up-to-date. (I recently updated the recent New England/Golden Highway interchange, so that should be on the next nav map update)

 

[Maximillan]

My map is still showing the pre-interchange world and the car is showing me on the surface roads. When I drive through there I "end trip" and avoid TACC so as to avoid it braking for a left turn on the surface road.

 

[Vostok]

The Rozelle Interchange in Sydney opened on 26 November 2023, and I'm now typing this in May 2024, half a year later. While you can see the tunnels on the map, Tesla still doesn't know how to drive through them: every time I do, navigation freaks out and repeatedly tells me to turn left/right through the tunnel wall into surface streets, and I can't use TACC/Autosteer either because it's getting the wrong speed limits from those surface roads, not the tunnel.

Yes everyone is in the same boat. At least now the Tesla Nav knows that heading eastbound on the CWL you can turn left onto Victoria Rd, instead of it sending you across the Anzac Bridge and telling you to do a U-turn in Pyrmont. It did that for about a year but it finally got fixed in February.

But inside the tunnels, yeah it is hopeless. It has no idea where you are. A few months ago I had a somewhat terrifying incident where TACC freaked out and thought I was about to slam into a T-intersection on the surface road at speed, and it hit the brakes hard. Luckily the tunnel was mostly empty when it happened.

There is no solution other than to turn TACC off once you enter.

 

[Vostok]

you eventually get far enough away from the maps idea of where the tunnel is that the car will think you are now on the surface. I was southbound, and it wanted me to do a u-turn on a surface street just before emerging from the end of the tunnel!

On most tunnels in Sydney I’ve found the Nav seems to learn over time, because even with GPS drift, it guesses you are still in the tunnel. For most of the M1, M4, M5, M8 and M11 tunnels there are no other tunnels nearby, so that mostly works.

But that doesn’t work in the Rozelle interchange, where there are so many tunnels close to each other and cross-crossing each other that there is no way the Nav can be certain as to which tunnel branch you are actually in.

There would need to be 3D-GPS repeaters throughout the interchange to work it out.

 

[B3AU]

On most tunnels in Sydney I’ve found the Nav seems to learn over time, because even with GPS drift, it guesses you are still in the tunnel. For most of the M1, M4, M5, M8 and M11 tunnels there are no other tunnels nearby, so that mostly works.

But that doesn’t work in the Rozelle interchange, where there are so many tunnels close to each other and cross-crossing each other that there is no way the Nav can be certain as to which tunnel branch you are actually in.

There would need to be 3D-GPS repeaters throughout the interchange to work it out.

Or use Bluetooth beacons, as Waze & Google does.

(Repeating GPS signals is illegal in Australia)

NSW seeking approval to put GPS repeaters in Sydney tunnels

Current Australian laws ban the retransmission of satellite signals used in navigation.

www.zdnet.com

 

[james.hogg]

The Rozelle Interchange in Sydney opened on 26 November 2023, and I'm now typing this in May 2024, half a year later. While you can see the tunnels on the map, Tesla still doesn't know how to drive through them: every time I do, navigation freaks out and repeatedly tells me to turn left/right through the tunnel wall into surface streets, and I can't use TACC/Autosteer either because it's getting the wrong speed limits from those surface roads, not the tunnel.

Is everybody else in the same boat, and if yes, is there any way to direct feedback to Tesla about this? Driving a Model 3 with the latest update.

Had MY 2024 a week and the map seems now to show the tunnels, but ignores them. If i use correct tunnels with navigation and cruise control enabled I have had multiple times the adaptive cruise seemingly just start slowing rapidly. The navigation is announcing upcoming turns so it seems to be slowing for the aboveground corner it is anticipating. Has anyone experienced that? Unsure if just in my head.
Also around Tesla Sydney showroom the navigation repeatedly suggested making u turns at traffic lights. Where is the feedback mechanism to report these Illegal directions?
Having incorrect navigation when sold as a feature of vehicle and even has subscription upgrade is not a nuisance, but a safety issue to both driver and other road users that must be addressed.
I have logged ticket with Tesla support, but if not addressed I would recommend crowd sourced complaints to road safety authority with aim for them to provide directive to address fault.

 

[singlespeed]

I think the local government will appreciate it everyone would forget about the Rozelle Interchange.

 

[Vostok]

The navigation is announcing upcoming turns so it seems to be slowing for the aboveground corner it is anticipating. Has anyone experienced that? Unsure if just in my head.

It’s not just in your head. Me and others have reported exactly that in this and other threads. I turn Nav and TACC off in the Rozelle Interchange, it’s just not worth the drama and panic it creates.

 

[cafz]

The navigation is announcing upcoming turns so it seems to be slowing for the aboveground corner it is anticipating. Has anyone experienced that? Unsure if just in my head.

The navigation certainly does begin to slow for upcoming turns and roundabouts if you are using TACC.

So if the navigation doesn't realise you're in the tunnels, it's best to turn it off.

 

[RichardV]

The navigation certainly does begin to slow for upcoming turns and roundabouts if you are using TACC.

So if the navigation doesn't realise you're in the tunnels, it's best to turn it off.

For all the talk of radar being an unreliable sensor to base driving off who thought linking GPS to actual driving behaviour was a good idea.

 

[dronus]

Also around Tesla Sydney showroom the navigation repeatedly suggested making u turns at traffic lights. Where is the feedback mechanism to report these Illegal directions?
Having incorrect navigation when sold as a feature of vehicle and even has subscription upgrade is not a nuisance, but a safety issue to both driver and other road users that must be addressed.
I have logged ticket with Tesla support, but if not addressed I would recommend crowd sourced complaints to road safety authority with aim for them to provide directive to address fault.

how would you provide feed back to any other car manufacturer in regards to navigation?
It is always the responsibility of the driver to drive safely and according to the regulations. the driver should be making the decisions based on the current conditions.

 

[Punchbuggy]

Just to add to this, Tesla nav doesn't yet know about the new roads around Sydney Airport either. I had to drop someone off at International a couple of days ago, and as we approached Mascot I was being directed in a wrong direction. Then after ending up on the city side, going back I was re-routed onto non-existant roads. Fortunately I sighted a Murrays Coach on the way there from Sydney Central so I just followed it. The signage from that direction is so new the words are still blanked out.
I hope the maps are updated before my next trip there.

 

[Vostok]

It is always the responsibility of the driver to drive safely and according to the regulations. the driver should be making the decisions based on the current conditions.

Well, yes, but in the Rozelle Intechange we have a situation where the car thinks you are somewhere you are not. It thinks you are driving on surface roads, when in fact you are 40 metres underground. With TACC and navigation on, the car will make profoundly incorrect decisions which are frankly dangerous and the only way to stop it is to turn them off.

This doesn’t seem to happen in other Sydney tunnels. I think it has something to do with the complexity of the interchange with so many tunnels criss-crossing each other in a relatively small area - GPS doesn’t work, and dead reckoning can’t work out whether you are in the tunnel, and if so, which one, or whether you are on a surface street. Result: complete confusion with occasional panic.

In other tunnels in Sydney there is less ambiguity and dead reckoning seemingly can guess where you are and what you are doing.

 

[Jules22]

This doesn’t seem to happen in other Sydney tunnels.

That's because most other tunnels have GPS repeaters, Rozelle doesn't (along with dozens of other issues), which causes problems with many navigation systems.

 

[Vostok]

That's because most other tunnels have GPS repeaters, Rozelle doesn't (along with dozens of other issues), which causes problems with many navigation systems.

Which other tunnels?

My ACMA search reveals only one Scientific Licence issued to conduct a GPS repeater trial, and that’s in the M5 Eastbound Tunnel under the Cooks River near Sydney Airport. It is a trial not a permanent installation:

https://web.acma.gov.au/rrl/licence_image.extract_pdf?pLICENCE_NO=11349447/1

In ACMA’s current 5-Year Spectrum Outlook they say:

Activities planned for 2024–25
While permanent licensing arrangements are being considered, we will continue to consider applications for assigned scientific licences for trials of RNSS [ radionavigation satellite service repeaters ] retransmission technology devices.
In Q2 2024, we plan to consult on long-term licensing arrangements for RNSS retransmission technologies, with an aim to finalise permanent licensing arrangements in Q2 2025.

Looks like much work still to do before GPS repeaters become a thing.

 

[moa999]

If the car knows about the tunnel it will just position based on distance, which is pretty accurate.

Problem is in the Rozelle Interchange it doesn't sonis continuing to route you assuming you are on the surface streets above.

One of the reasons I keep my car on the old two pushes for autopilot. Can just go through the tunnel on TACC (one push down).
Also useful for all the 40 zones around.

 

[james.hogg]

how would you provide feed back to any other car manufacturer in regards to navigation?
It is always the responsibility of the driver to drive safely and according to the regulations. the driver should be making the decisions based on the current conditions.

Nice video
So your voting that Tesla who has navigation controlling their vehicles that can cause death or injury should just keep the status quo of having maps completely out of date and have their vehicles act irratically due to this, and have no accountability for this? I bought new Tesla and no one in their team even warned me of this issue when simply driving out of showroom in Sydney it sent me the wrong way and almost caused an accident.

Google has a simple button called "feedback" where I submit a navigation fault and it gets updated in a timely fashion. That is because they have android auto in vehicles and accurate navigation is a safety issue. This is list of manufacturers who now use android auto therefore your question on how I notify another manufacturer of map issues....for most now it is same a Google.
Abarth, Acura, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Citroën, Dacia, Dodge, Ferrari, Fiat, Ford, GMC, Genesis, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Kia, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Opel, Peugeot, Porsche, Ram, Renault, SEAT, Škoda, Subaru, Suzuki, Toyota, Vauxhall, Volkswagen, Volvo.

If Tesla wants to be responsible for their own navigation system that controls a vehicle with lethal consequences then the argument stands they should be held to having mechanisms for keeping it updated in a timely manner....we are talking more than 6 months old now for Rozelle interchange, as it has been open 6 months, but change was known and date of opening announced well before this. Google I could plan a route on new interchange months before it actually opened by setting a date after the opening date. Day of opening it routed me correctly into interchange.

 

[Jules22]

Nice video
So your voting that Tesla who has navigation controlling their vehicles that can cause death or injury should just keep the status quo of having maps completely out of date and have their vehicles act irratically due to this, and have no accountability for this? I bought new Tesla and no one in their team even warned me of this issue when simply driving out of showroom in Sydney it sent me the wrong way and almost caused an accident.

Google has a simple button called "feedback" where I submit a navigation fault and it gets updated in a timely fashion. That is because they have android auto in vehicles and accurate navigation is a safety issue. This is list of manufacturers who now use android auto therefore your question on how I notify another manufacturer of map issues....for most now it is same a Google.
Abarth, Acura, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Citroën, Dacia, Dodge, Ferrari, Fiat, Ford, GMC, Genesis, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Kia, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Opel, Peugeot, Porsche, Ram, Renault, SEAT, Škoda, Subaru, Suzuki, Toyota, Vauxhall, Volkswagen, Volvo.

If Tesla wants to be responsible for their own navigation system that controls a vehicle with lethal consequences then the argument stands they should be held to having mechanisms for keeping it updated in a timely manner....we are talking more than 6 months old now for Rozelle interchange, as it has been open 6 months, but change was known and date of opening announced well before this. Google I could plan a route on new interchange months before it actually opened by setting a date after the opening date. Day of opening it routed me correctly into interchange.

The video is a perfect analogy.

I don't think he's saying you shouldn't report it to Tesla, of course you should, the more of us who do so, the higher the priority it will get.

All of the hyperbole about 'lethal consequences' etc is fairly stupid though, as in the video, you are responsible and it is up to you as a driver to be intelligent and safe about those choices. That is akin to the Business Insider moron who put glue on a pizza cause Google AI told him to. There is a point where personal responsibility takes over.

All of the other manufacturers fall on the crutch of android auto/apple car play, along with hundreds of other little pieces of software because they don't do anything themselves any more. Even Jim Farley has lamented this fact and the fact they will never be able to match Tesla in software development and over the air updates without totally re-inventing themselves and investing billions to do so.

Yes there are some negatives to this, but the postives FAR outweigh the negatives.

 

[QtownTaxiGreg]

(Repeating GPS signals is illegal in Australia

There's probably a much more important reason. If you rebroadcast GPS you can use the civilian signal to get sub cm accuracy in real time. Nobody wants a self guided missile built in some disaffected whizzkid's garage flying in through the Prime Minister's front window, for example.