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I can remember when it seemed preposterous that a computer could beat a chess grandmaster. The problem was just too hard to solve. A computer could never beat a strong player. It was no match for human intuition, which is something we couldn't even understand, much less simulate. But after 10 years of research, IBM's Deep Blue beat reigning World Champion Gary Kasparaov, who is arguably the greatest player who ever lived.

Similarly, we are about 10 years into Tesla's autopilot/FSD efforts. And we don't even need to match the greatest driver who ever lived.

They are not comparable and winning at chess seemed impossible only for people outside CS. You can build a pretty strong chess algorithm quite early while learning to program (I did it as part of a homework in my second year of university), how it fared against a grandmaster was mostly a function of processing speed and iterating on those algorithms. There was also nowhere near the level of investment we are seeing now with autonomy, where billions of dollars are spent annually across the industry to get to a solution first.

Broadly, i also think it's a logical fallacy to take for granted something that has never been done before, just because we've been able to do other seemingly impossible things. Arguably there's an even bigger collection of things that always seemed to be on the cusp of being solved, but which ended up nowhere.

In the absence of anything else, my metric is the community based FSD tracker. The improvements are in the hundreds of percent, but still only a fraction or what's required.
 
I already don't (and have disclosed multiple times I have no stake to drive the SP down or up since it doesn't affect me nor can Elon fire me),
I don't get it. You aren't an investor, OR a shortseller. Why spend so much time here? I think GOOG and AAPL are both really bad investments, and if someone asks me I'll mention it. I have even tweeted it a few times. But I wouldn't sign up for an account on an apple or google website to tell people in detail my thinking on it every day. That would be strange.
 
Take up your issue with Yipit Data.
@DarkandStormy
NO< I'M taking it up with =>you<= as you seem to be presenting incorrect interpretation of that data

It seems to me, =>YOU<= accidentally misinterpreted the data from what I can discern, unless I am misreading the Y axis of 10 at the top, not 100 at the top
not the Y axis on the right, 0% bottom, 10% top, .

It seems to be a truncated Y axis, which is prone to misinterpretation or misrepresentation,
as Edward Tufte points out in his book, one can amplify or diminish pesky parts of graphs & data as desired by presenter
"the visual display of quantitative information"

One of us seems to have misinterpretated the graph, and either _you_ made a mistake or _I_ made a mistake, if I did I will apologize
.
your 2% (or around 1.8%) is not 2% of 100% but seems to be, ~2% of 10%
OR
2% is 20% of the way to 10% 1/5th!
1715373828569.png
 
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I’ve mentioned that we recently bought a used 2022 Toyota Tundra to serve primarily as a tow vehicle. It has both Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist*. The Adaptive Cruise Control seems on par with Tesla’s. The Lane Keep Assist is noticeably less smooth. So, even pretty standard ICE vehicles seem to have much of the functionality of Autopilot. And, yes, I would expect those features in any future EV purchase.

*Lane Keep Assist is not available in our truck in either of its tow modes. I guess that’s for safety concerns.

I have tried Adaptive Cruise Controls and Lane Assists on several different brands. Not on the Toyota - but Mercedes, Jaguar, Nissan, Citroen and others.

They all have in common that while the ACC worked OK the Lane Assist on all these cars tried to kill me. They were headed for the ditch or for oncoming traffic or for cars in another lane. I found all of them to be lots of work and not assisting me in any useful way.

The old Autopilot we in Europe still use on the other hand is rock solid *). I did experience a couple of iffy situations back in oh 2019 or so. But a few updates later it started behaving really good. So no - I cannot agree with your statement:

So, even pretty standard ICE vehicles seem to have much of the functionality of Autopilot.

*) It does not know everything. Rundabouts and traffic lights are two examples of the known situations where I always take control myself. But within it's known limitations it works really well.
 
I have tried Adaptive Cruise Controls and Lane Assists on several different brands. Not on the Toyota - but Mercedes, Jaguar, Nissan, Citroen and others.

They all have in common that while the ACC worked OK the Lane Assist on all these cars tried to kill me. They were headed for the ditch or for oncoming traffic or for cars in another lane. I found all of them to be lots of work and not assisting me in any useful way.

Legacy OEMs have a pipeline delay measured of at least 3-4 years. My 2023 bmw 5 series has pretty much perfect lane assist and can easily handle highways with any sort of bends you'd normally find. My previous 2017 Mercedes was hilariously bad.

Essentially any manufacturer that is happy to pay can get such a system in their cars, since the majority of them just buy their electronics and software from companies like continental, mobileye or Bosch. But it's obviously a small fraction of what FSD can do today. Whether the majority of people are happy to pay 4-5x for FSD before it's level 4 or 5, that's another story.
 
With greater dwell time, comes more shopping opportunities. I can see site managers like BP turning sites into destinations, with far more food options (pizza, kebab, bakeries, fish & chip shops), varied shops, haircuts, delivery pickup locations.

For Australia - free corks & string with hats, sunscreen, sunglasses, ice cream, cold drinks and beachwear. For UK - umbrellas, Greggs & tea (Earl Grey, hot).
In Italy, it's the Autogrill (over 400 of them) for gourmet paninis, espresso, as well as a pit stop for tour buses.


I remember the "Pocket Coffee" liquid coffee-infused chocolates, hard to find in the US, but further lining
the fortunes of the Ferrero family, billionaires from Nutella alone.
 
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He rehired some people at Twitter too after the mass layoffs.

Two methods.

1. Slowly cut to get to the right team.
2. Cut big and rehire to get to the right team.

Method one probably takes longer and may create more dissatisfaction over longer period. Gets rid of dead weight quicker.

Slowly pull the bandaid off or rip it off. I always rip it off.
 
He rehired some people at Twitter too after the mass layoffs.

Two methods.

1. Slowly cut to get to the right team.
2. Cut big and rehire to get to the right team.

Method one probably takes longer and may create more dissatisfaction over longer period. Gets rid of dead weight quicker.

Slowly pull the bandaid off or rip it off. I always rip it off.
Slowly pull the bandaid off like how Elon sells $TSLA shares when he needs to :)
 
I don't know the history of that one and this is wildly OT in my view. But it is possible that it was in fact started when he Tweeted that but never finished or scrapped.
The topic is that Elon lies about progress of his companies. If there was a tunnel STARTED from NY to DC you can damn sure bet an Elon fanboi would be there from day one of staging to start a YouTube channel. Where is it? I haven't found any proof.
 
Perhaps.

No other company has a CEO with the kind of reach Elon has. For better or worse, Elon's tweets have more impact than any PR statement from any other company on earth. If there is a message Elon wants to get out, it's out instantly. A PR department would just slow him down. (Yes, at times it seems that would be a good thing.)
Only like 3% of the population uses Twitter regularly and even sees his Tweets. Elon is also horrible at Personal and Public Relations
 
I already don't (and have disclosed multiple times I have no stake to drive the SP down or up since it doesn't affect me nor can Elon fire me), but I'm just voicing/countering someone's claim that Tesla's best growth (their words) were in front of them. People can invest however they want, but claiming their best growth (after a 50x increase in the past is now ahead?) (in an investment thread which is tied directly to their stock price), that's all I'm disagreeing with.

Oh Tesla's best growth is certainly yet ahead of it. The potential of the auto market for Tesla is small (even if they somehow get to 20 million cars/yr) compared to what autonomy and humanoids will earn Tesla down the road. Robotaxi potential is at least a 5X over auto sales, and Optimus is much more than that. Both will have recurring revenues from softwares over massive hardware fleets. Heck Megapack sales alone will be more than the autos make in time.

This isn't happening next year mind you, this is a very long term outlook. Like 2030-2035 timeframe at best, but Tesla today is very small financially compared to where its going.

If you don't believe that then you haven't done enough research nor have you modeled it out. Seeing the potential numbers, the probable earnings, its staggering. There are very good reasons why so many investors are holding for the next decade, and its got absolutely bupkis to do with selling cars. 😎
 
The topic is that Elon lies about progress of his companies. If there was a tunnel STARTED from NY to DC you can damn sure bet an Elon fanboi would be there from day one of staging to start a YouTube channel. Where is it? I haven't found any proof.

The tweet said "Already started DC to NY route." Notice "route" and not "tunnel." Negotiations with local governments is part of starting a new route.

They bought a plot of land in DC for the first station of the route, but got caught up in "regulatory no man's land." Uncertain future for Elon Musk-inspired DC-to-Baltimore tunnel - WTOP News

Some strides were made, though — including the company purchasing land in D.C. that could have been used as a station.

There was an environmental assessment of the Loop project; the U.S. and Maryland transportation departments released that draft in 2019.

However, it appears the project is stalled.
 
Somebody ought to explain that to the idiot at MIT Technology Review who wrote this nonsense:


Implying that Tesla is quitting their Supercharger business.
Quitting superchargers in lieu of direct wireless energy transfer by quantum photon teleportation. I mean all those starlink satellites just so people can watch more cat videos? And wireless energy transfer, initially envisioned by Nikola Tesla, would be a good use for Mars transportation and a good back up energy system.
 
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To those who imagine I see Tesla as 'just a car company':
You have never read my posts.
Since early years I have seen Tesla as an energy company primarily because of JB Straubel vision and Elon Musk being into that vision;
Since 2012 I have viewed Tesla as a design company, primarily because of the brilliant Model S which would never have happened without major bets on visionary approaches;
Since 2015 and the first Ludicrous I considered Tesl a a materials company because, in part,of the inconel fuse;
Then came Shanghai GF, which proved without question that Tesla was a manufacturing marvel;
The Hornsdale Power Reserve proved that Tesla could integrate multiple power sources, grid services and, shortly after, residential power grid integration. Soon Tesla was, and still is, a licensed power provider in many jurisdictions. Clearly, Tesla is a power utility.

In regard to FSD, those who ignore my pints also ignore fundamental facts regarding systems development and AI in particular. Nobody cared o ask my qualifications for these judgements, so I'll not waste time by stating them. Some here know them anyway. Any major new technology requires an undertrminable time to perfect. That was true in ancient human programmed days. Now, training neural networks exacerbates that problem. The 'march of nnes' growing increasingly difficult as the alter stages begin. In the case of FSD, as in aircraft systems, an abject failure is one that fails once in 100,000 trials. (I am reminded of designing aircraft doors and aircraft Autoland, FSD is very much like those.),

Any of you who are foolish enough to disregard all that in context of only a single AI related point may never understand Tesla. Those who assume Robotaxi is coming quickly simply do not understand risk analysis and the risk of a single failure). FWIW, all this is why actuaries invariably measure "loss severity" more stringently when "loss frequency" drops. That by the way, is a very superficial description.

Tesla will not successfully have autonomous FSD risk accepted without major proof of huge decline in loss frequency coupled with commensurate decline in loss severity, for both human and property. Those principles MUST be understood in order to even imagine commercial deployment of Robotaxi, apart from highly circumscribed tests.

Just because I am not now a Tesla shareholders does not mean I won't be when conditions improve. It also does not alter my continual effort to better understand Tesla. It also does not mean that I will stop trying my best to help people understand the importance of complex and arcane subjects that are not part of general vocabulary nor education.
 
In relation to improving the forum a lot of that is under our control.
I'm going to try to limit myself to 1-2 posts per day.
By definition that means I will not be responding to any posts.
Instead I'll consider if that post is something I consider when making my post on the next day,
Lower volume will make it much easier for Mods to manage.

I don't pretend to understand how Elon thinks, but I think about free cash flow, is the pile of cash growing or shrinking?
I think that is something that could be factored into his decision making.

I my guess is he ranks project in merit order when making spending decisions.

1. Optimus - recession tolerant - high margin.
2. Robotaxis - recession tolerant - high margin.
3. Megapack - partially recession tolerant - good margins.
4. Insurance - partially recession tolerant - average margins.
5. FSD - recession impacted - high margins.
6. Charging - minor recession impacts - average margins.
7. Selling new cars - recession impacted - variable margins.

I think where Elon thinks differently to us is that he doesn't consider the risk that Optimus and Robotaxis will not work. He is more or less assuming that they will happen. Hence they are the highest spending priority, and risk is probably managed by preserving cash

In relation to charging, the team is being reorganized, but it is also expanding at a slower pace, with lower spending.

IMO new car sales are a "canary in the coal mine" which can say a lot about what is really happening in an economy, and can say it first. Margins are variable because when demand drops off the are only 2 options 1. reduce prices and margins. 2. Reduce production.

IMO the recent high interest rates and various other macro changes has impacted on new car sales, not just for Tesla, but for the industry in general. That always happens, Elon has just been reminded of the cyclical nature of the car industry, which is a good industry in good times.

The current response is try to reduce capex on production expansion, and try to squeeze a bit more volume and variety out of the current lines.

Projects lower down the ranking are not abandoned, they are just lower spending priorities until the economy improves. It is essential to do that to manage risk by managing cash.