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Prior to March of 2019 it was very clearly promised, post that date is very debatable and will be decided in court if they distinguish between the two (and I think any reasonable reading of the primary and secondary sources would find the feature generally the same before and after that date).

I generally agree with this; I'd also point out that Tesla's motor purchase agreement contains this text: the "after the expiration of your Warranty" already ties software updates to the warranty period of the car.

Yeah, unfortunately that is likely to be decided by courts in the future unless Tesla makes alot of miraculous improvements in the near future (there is even a court case about it already) :p

I purchased a feature to be delivered in the future. If they can't deliver the feature with the hardware I have then they will have to make it work (by hardware upgrade if necessary) or they won't have delivered the feature and hence will be in breach of contract (to deliver the feature). Given...

The no FSDb could be due to the recall...

The crux of what I suspect everyone is angry about (myself included) is in the undefined city streets portion. Who in their right mind would pay $9K for automatic traffic light controls (which are incredibly poorly done to the point of being terrifying)? I bought FSD for eyes off drive me where...

It is highly unlikely that there is any iluminati level thinking here; just a race against time on a very expensive bet. If you look at the history of Musk's enterprises, he has time and again bet the farm on challenging goals and so far he has done remarkably well. The big question is which...

Long range for example is quite well defined as and EPA estimated range of ~330 miles (varies a little by configuration which they are up front about). If they were to sell you a car with a different configuration which is not capable of hitting that range on the same test then they should be...

Elon's statements don't make for a contract, but statements by company officers can be argued to describe the feature set which is part of the motor purchase agreement, especially when the order page doesn't really have concrete definition on it. Without secondary and tertiary sources you could...

I've always assumed the person doing a U-turn has the right of way and from a quick googling it looks like in California the vehicle making the U-turn has the right of way.

I thought that it was more that Mercede's system was limited to 37MPH on divided and limited access roads (which basically means traffic jams) but that speed will improve over time such that it can be used in more scenarios (including low density roads)?

I think I made multiple assertions: Regarding radar having a different set of environments where its data is invalidated: this is generally about the spectrum used; you are unlikely to get a object that is blinding both visual freq and microwave freq. The sun blinding your cameras won't blind...

The idea of Tesla being liable for something on HW3 that wouldn't have happened with HW4 is an interesting question. Obviously you (or any entity) don't have to accept liability to be liable; liability is based upon the action or lack of action which resulted in harm of some sort to another...

Yeah, I had a scary one yesterday, was at a red stoplight and FSD decided to do a right turn on red while someone was doing a U-turn. Needless to say I slammed my brakes hard :p I do find it ironic that FSD is terrified at stop signs but rambunctious at right on red :p

Any "refund" has to be accepted by the people getting the refund. Essentially the "refund" has to be worth more than the customer's time + cost to pursue other options. If the cost is to go through arbitration (even with a well known script and help filling it) then alot of people will take the...

I bought FSD based upon all the hype and amazing videos on youtube, but now I really wish I hadn't. I've only had one person ride with me with while using FSDb who didn't tell me to turn it off and never use it again with them after about five minutes (because of the lane selection chaos). I...

My guess is that nothing will happen until a few more costly verdicts start to come down (in court or arbitration) at which point Tesla will try to trade a pittance such as a bunch of free supercharging miles or transfer of FSD to a new vehicle etc. for a waiver of rights regarding FSD. Most...

My implication is that there are the additional sensory inputs in addition to any supporting hardware (wire harnesses, compute modules, etc). But more importantly, my contention is that radar allows for sufficient environmental perception in situations that won't be able to be handled by...

Realistically, I expect the first major improvement will be a stop to phantom braking (and false forward collision alerts and automatic emergency braking) due to the new radar.

I bought the FSD feature in December, paying 12K for it (ordered last April). I wish I hadn't bought it, should have just done the subscription. Frankly I shouldn't have even bought the car then and instead just cancelled my order; I had way too much faith/expectation in Tesla delivering FSD on...

While it is classed as a driving assist you should always assume "will do the WORST thing at the WORST time"

HW3 no longer includes radar (or ultrasonics for that matter but that is only relevant to EAP features). Short of dramatically more advanced (and resultantly much more expensive) cameras you won't be able to match the distance of human perception at some of the lighting edge cases (high dynamic...

While I hold seeking alpha in extremely low regard, I think Tesla is sitting on a monumental amount of liability if they were to completely fail to deliver FSD on any hardware platform. I am also of the camp that thinks HW3 is insufficient to deliver the FSD promises (combo of forward camera...

I have no expectation to get new features un-related to FSD, the base car is the base car. My issue is in purchasing a vehicle to get the eventual FSD capabilities and paying $12K for a yet to be delivered product that is now sounding like it might never get fully delivered due to "out of date...

I think there was alot of speculation lately (myself included) but the re-introduction of radar seems to me to be a pretty big deal; these phantom braking issues (even outside of AP/EAP/FSDb) are pretty severe and it is looking like the full fix is the new radar.

Geeze, talking about threading the needle on that disclaimer! I suspect that his statement there will end up being contested in court as ineffectual but who knows how that would turn out (such statements are generally given at the start of the talk or before a speaker giving the forward looking...

I'm not really clear on what you mean by design vs hardware, could you clarify?

Can you provide a timestamp for the forward looking statement part? I tried scanning through the video but I couldn't find it.

If that is your reaction then I'd contend thats an example of exactly why false alarms are so bad; if you expect alarms to be false and then the real one won't grab your attention.

I was able to see fine, human vision is still dramatically better than most cameras especially when dealing with high dynamic range situations (which I think was the issue in this case). I had no idea if the car could see well or not (though evidently it couldn't at the time). My assumption is...

Wow, insulting a little? I'm contending a material flaw in the system and filled a complaint; as consumers this is part of holding companies (Tesla and otherwise) to account for our safety while using their product. Tesla doesn't seem to provide data about this to regulators so we have to...

I filed a complaint about a false alert on a clear road which creates a dangerous condition where there was none. Forward collision warnings are a last moment thing, your reaction time to analyze the situation means that anything other than an immediate stop is basically useless (assuming that...

Ok, I just filled a complaint about the alerts I've gotten!

One major issue I have with (what I can only assume is the lack of radar) is the forward collision alerts sounding when driving towards the sun in very bright conditions (happened twice now). I'm thinking I need to file a complaint with the NHTSA actually as the alert generally makes me slam my...

You could probably argue for diminished value of the features using the USS...

You've brought up a really interesting point and I've been pondering what to make of this for a few hours. Essentially it shows a pattern of sloppiness on the part of Tesla regarding their localization of this one very specific item (which is strange because they do ALOT of localization work...

I'm not denying the functional vs regulatory approval order of events. What I am trying to point out is that for the feature to require regulatory approval before release in the US then the feature by definition must be something that requires regulatory approval, IE L3+. Essentially this is a...

I strongly disagree about this, the current US order page specifically talks about regulatory approval which, in the US, is ONLY required for L3+ levels of autonomy. Add onto this previous statements from Musk and previous versions of the page (which are probably just secondary sources for what...

One exceptionally important detail that I haven't seen anyone mention before, Tesla specifically mentions on the order page: "The currently enabled features require active driver supervision ... The activation and use of these features are dependent on ... regulatory approval," Given that L2...

By the same logic, if a wheel sometimes falls off on the freeway but you can put it back on, is that just a characteristic of the car that should be allowed? The unification of systems is great most of the time, but what happens if you are in the middle of a tunnel and you don't know if your...

So given the broad rollout of FSD, we probably now know how many FSD purchasers + subscribers there are...

That is pretty crazy, I wonder what this is going to mean? Are they going to disable all FSD beta? I doubt they can fix it on one swing as there are ALOT of places where it does crazy/suicidal stuff...

That is going to be the multi-billion dollar question!

Ugh, if there is no retrofit path then this is going to quickly spiral into a giant lawsuit mess on the contention that the additional sensors are proof prima facie that Tesla can't achieve FSD with the existing sensor suite. I was really hoping that they were going to have an upgrade path that...

For me a big part of the concern is if the new radar module ends up having a very significant impact on system capability and safety. It is frankly fine and even expected if new features beyond what was promised don't get added to HW3 just like with a new phone not getting all the newest things...

Generally saying you are the top or leading or such is going to be considered fluffery unless you are specifically sighting some concrete benchmark and it is provable that you lied about the benchmark (ie if you said you were leading in a category according to JD powers but they said someone...

As one of the less informed customers last December, I honestly wouldn't have bought the car at the time (let alone the $12K FSD package) if I had suspected that I would be left on a hardware island. Time will tell what happens with the advancement of FSD and what retrofits paths are (paid or...

This is extremely true! Of course the cutoff will be a grey area which will be a pain in the ass to define. I'd argue further that if it is shown that HW3 is unable to achieve FSD then there is a point in the last year or so where Tesla continuing to market FSD with HW3 was likely fraudulent...

I was on a trip last week and on a divided four lane (two lanes in each direction) state route in rural California it switched to fsd-b and it had no issue doing 72 mph (65 speed limit + 7) on that road.

So one thing I've definitely noticed is that NoA gives quite a bit of room to semi trucks for me; it actually gets pretty close to the opposite side lane marker.