FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[LSDTester#1]

As long as I'm still the driver in command I don't mind the "nags" which aren't really nags to me. Even as a "supervisor" I need be aware and alert. I consider having to be "engaged" with the system is an important safety benefit. Of course, I want "unsupervised" FSD at some point.

Ic wut u did there.

“Driver In Command”

I’d normally congratulate you on the stealthy pilot reference, but all I saw was DIC.

So our goal should now be to, “be the DIC”

Alan wants to be the DIC.
In Elon / @gottagofast parlance,
We all need a little more DIC in our lives.

 

[FSDtester#1]

Ic wut u did there.

“Driver In Command”

I’d normally congratulate you on the stealthy pilot reference, but all I saw was DIC.

So our goal should now be to, “be the DIC”

Alan wants to be the DIC.
In Elon / @gottagofast parlance,
We all need a little more DIC in our lives.

So now it's FS DIC ??

 

[lzolman]

If you’re switching your gaze between the screen and the road then you’re not looking at the screen for 5-10 seconds.

More importantly, the data show that decent drivers are decidedly not decent at gauging their level of distraction.

Maybe I'm an indecent driver, but I feel I'm decent at gauging how likely there is to be a surprise popping out in front of me on the road if I take my eyes off of it for 2 seconds. My eyes are typically darting back to the road at a rate I'd say is greater than one glance each two seconds. But everyone is obliged to operate in a way that's safe for them.

 

[LSDTester#1]

Maybe I'm an indecent driver, but I feel I'm decent at gauging how likely there is to be a surprise popping out in front of me on the road if I take my eyes off of it for 2 seconds. My eyes are typically darting back to the road at a rate I'd say is greater than one glance each two seconds. But everyone is obliged to operate in a way that's safe for them.

Always be scanning

 

[lzolman]

Wrong. It’s safer than keeping your eyes forward on the road 100% of the time. The trick is not to get fixated on any one thing. If your eyes are always forward, how will you see that guy barreling down your 6? Or the car creeping out on you 3?

It’s like flying. Always be scanning. Just don’t fixate. What’s the #1 rule of flying a plane? (Hint: It’s the same #1 rule as driving)

I didn't mean to imply I 'fixate'. Of course I'm scanning. I was contrasting keeping my eyes generally forward vs. sneaking a second or two at a time to futz with the interface.

 

[MP3Mike]

That timing seems pretty aggressive. Is this on initial enabling of FSD? Or after it has been running for a while?

It was about 20 minutes into the drive, and I think I only had one steering wheel nag prior, which was probably 10 minutes before.

Anyway, seems pretty hard to get a strike if you're paying attention.

I was paying attention, and even while looking at the screen I could see the traffic ahead of me. (This was in slow traffic on the freeway, so the V11 stack.) After about a minute traffic came to a stop, I was able to put it in park, drive, enable FSD, and continue on for the rest of the drive.

All I wanted to do was scroll/zoom the map a little to look and see if I needed to take an alternate route. (Maybe I just need to put sunglasses on when I need to do that?)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

and I think I only had one steering wheel nag prior, which was probably 10 minutes before.

slow traffic on the freeway

Wonder if the old “warnings per mile” limit came into play? Might have taken more than 10 minutes to go three miles?

Obviously dated at this point, and won’t reflect current implementation, but wonder if the underlying nag rates still do matter.

 

[Dewg]

I've never seen anything like that. I guess when it tells me to pay attention to the road, I do that. I guess I could experiment but don't really want a strike!

That timing seems pretty aggressive. Is this on initial enabling of FSD? Or after it has been running for a while?

Anyway, seems pretty hard to get a strike if you're paying attention. Which seems like a good plan. I've never seen any warnings in that case - and even torque nags are super infrequent (good to hear they are going to be gone forever, but unfortunate about sunglasses - of course very predictable and about what I expected).

This is all feeling a bit "passing notes in class"...

You write a note and start to pass it to a friend, when the teacher sees you and says "Alan! Stop passing notes and pay attention to the blackboard." So you face forward and the teacher turns around, after which you start passing the note again. The teacher quickly looks over his shoulder and catches you trying to pass the note again.

The point is - PAY ATTENTION AND STOP PASSING NOTES! In other words - pay attention to the road and stop fidgeting with things while driving. Need to change your navigation? Use voice prompts "Navigate to Best Buy on Main Street" or "Take me home" or "Navigate to 123 Main Street, Anytown"

Just because people have FSDS or AP does not mean the car is autonomous - it requires the driver to pay attention and intervene if necessary.

"But, but, but, I'm driving on an empty road, there's no danger, so why can't I mess around however I want?" Aside from the obvious, car mistakenly decides the lane swerved right into that tree/barricade on the shoulder, how does the car know you're alone on a road? It can only see so far in front of you, and only so far to the sides and back of you, so its operating in a most restrictive manner.

"But, but, but, isn't FSDS/AP supposed to be safer than a human? Wouldn't it be safer for me to mess with whatever I want while it's operating instead of trying to do that while I'm driving manually?" A very valid argument, and I'd totally agree if it wasn't for two things: 1) FSDS/AP are L2 driver assist features, and require constant vigilance while using. Don't get complacent. 2) Misuse of the system has lead to increased driver monitoring due to internal decisions from Tesla and outside pressure from regulators like NHTSA.

So be a good lamb, and stop messing with things while using ADAS features.

PS - Any L2 ADAS feature from any mfg that includes driver eye monitoring will scream at you for messing with things. Try playing with your touchscreen for 10+ seconds while using Blue Cruise or Super Cruise, et al.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But, but, but, isn't FSDS/AP supposed to be safer than a human

Also, there is absolutely zero evidence for such a claim. There has been no published data showing any hint that that might be the case. I have no idea where people come up with that sort of thing.

 

[Dewg]

Maybe I'm an indecent driver, but I feel I'm decent at gauging how likely there is to be a surprise popping out in front of me on the road if I take my eyes off of it for 2 seconds. My eyes are typically darting back to the road at a rate I'd say is greater than one glance each two seconds. But everyone is obliged to operate in a way that's safe for them.

We're human, the car isn't. The car doesn't have your sense of intuition, your highly evolved brain, your sixth sense about the world around you. It just has its cameras to view the world in a very narrow range compared to humans, and software which operates very restrictively, trying to keep you alive. It needs you to pay attention and be ready for anything. You and I know that a tree can't fall in front of the car, or that a dear can't jump out of nowhere on the urban freeway, but the car doesn't.

 

[OldManCan]

All this talk about FSD giving us strikes about looking at the screen for too long... I totally agree this is not sustainable but I think most of us are missing the point.

We are at the mercy of the screen because Tesla has a vision of removing physical control elements (ie buttons, levers, stalks etc). Such control items you could operate without shifting your gaze from the screen but the more we have "soft buttons" to control stuff the more we have to avert our gaze. I was told there are voice commands for almost anything you can do on the screen but I am not finding it easy to get very good at this.

Maybe in time this will improve as Tesla is now talking about introducing its own Siri/Alexa type assistant. Not sure how best to handle this in the meanwhile. A cause for frustration for many of us that's for sure.

 

[Dewg]

Also, there is absolutely zero evidence for such a claim. There has been no published data showing any hint that that might be the case. I have no idea where people come up with that sort of thing.

I don't care if it's less safe, as safe, or more safe - doesn't alter the fact that it's an L2 driver assist and I have to pay attention.

 

[JulienW]

I haven’t got any strikes, Tesla probably likes that and has taken notice

Engineer: Elon gottagofast doesn't have any strikes.
Elon: Is this an original 10.2 and the only person.
Engineer: No they are a newbie and there are many others including original users like JulienW with 0 strikes.
Elon: Still give 12.4.1 to gottagofast first because they disengage the most.

 

[aronth5]

Time to nag everyone on this thread! Stop discussing nags until we see how 12.4 actually works. I know, not a chance that happens but you can't yell at me for trying!

 

[MP3Mike]

The point is - PAY ATTENTION AND STOP PASSING NOTES! In other words - pay attention to the road and stop fidgeting with things while driving.

I was paying attention, and had clear view of the traffic in front while I glanced at the screen and I still had my hand on the steering wheel providing torque.

Need to change your navigation? Use voice prompts "Navigate to Best Buy on Main Street" or "Take me home" or "Navigate to 123 Main Street, Anytown"

There is no voice control to scroll, or zoom, the map to look at upcoming traffic or alternate routes. (At least that I am aware of.)

If we aren't supposed to look at/use the map, just take it away and make it full screens FSD visualization. But I guess we aren't supposed to look at that either, so just turn the screen off...

As a note, I was in a loaner the other day and got a strike for a similar situation. Just to see what happened I refused to take over, and it continued for a while and then started slowing down. I then pressed the accelerator and it continued to steer, all the while yelling at me to take control. It eventually turned on the emergency flashers so I took over so I could turn them off. FSD is definitely safer than most of the other systems that just totally disengage steering control with a fairly, or completely, silent warning. (And continue controlling speed, sending the car off the road if the driver isn't able to, or doesn't, take control.)

 

[LSDTester#1]

This is all feeling a bit "passing notes in class"...

You write a note and start to pass it to a friend, when the teacher sees you and says "Alan! Stop passing notes and pay attention to the blackboard." So you face forward and the teacher turns around, after which you start passing the note again. The teacher quickly looks over his shoulder and catches you trying to pass the note again.

The point is - PAY ATTENTION AND STOP PASSING NOTES! In other words - pay attention to the road and stop fidgeting with things while driving. Need to change your navigation? Use voice prompts "Navigate to Best Buy on Main Street" or "Take me home" or "Navigate to 123 Main Street, Anytown"

Just because people have FSDS or AP does not mean the car is autonomous - it requires the driver to pay attention and intervene if necessary.

"But, but, but, I'm driving on an empty road, there's no danger, so why can't I mess around however I want?" Aside from the obvious, car mistakenly decides the lane swerved right into that tree/barricade on the shoulder, how does the car know you're alone on a road? It can only see so far in front of you, and only so far to the sides and back of you, so its operating in a most restrictive manner.

"But, but, but, isn't FSDS/AP supposed to be safer than a human? Wouldn't it be safer for me to mess with whatever I want while it's operating instead of trying to do that while I'm driving manually?" A very valid argument, and I'd totally agree if it wasn't for two things: 1) FSDS/AP are L2 driver assist features, and require constant vigilance while using. Don't get complacent. 2) Misuse of the system has lead to increased driver monitoring due to internal decisions from Tesla and outside pressure from regulators like NHTSA.

So be a good lamb, and stop messing with things while using ADAS features.

PS - Any L2 ADAS feature from any mfg that includes driver eye monitoring will scream at you for messing with things. Try playing with your touchscreen for 10+ seconds while using Blue Cruise or Super Cruise, et al.

Now this is the very definition of being a DIC

 

[Dewg]

I was paying attention, and had clear view of the traffic in front while I glanced at the screen and I still had my hand on the steering wheel providing torque.

And you still tried to pass the note, but the teacher caught you.

 

[FSDtester#1]

No, YOU’RE wrong

Am I ???? Are you gonna start this again, because you did it almost 2 years ago!!! Thanks Doc!!

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2020 Minneapolis

• Dec 26, 2022

Speaking of losers, who are some of the trolls coming in here and downvoting peoples posts? They never have posted and never contribute and just come in with the downvote? Wtf? That is against Tmc rules... I might have to alert the mods and get then to clean things up. Hmm, wait. They might see all the nonsense coming from some people not to be named. Ok, forget it. Welcome Trolls!

I just downvoted all your posts just to be a troll!

2020 Model Y LR AWD, VIN 027xxx, 19” Gemini Wheels
Lifetime Avg: 273 Wh/mi
2023.44.30.14 (FSDb 11.4.9)

 

[sleepydoc]

I clarified, in my reply to your other post. The 10 seconds gets you a nag/warning, and if you clear that with torque and looking forward, and then go back to looking at the screen to finish what you were doing you get a strike after about 2 seconds with no second nag/warning.

so you're annoyed that it has a memory and slaps your wrist for going back and doing what it just told you not to do?

 

[sleepydoc]

I had to give you a disagree... because that one day last year you went through and just hit disagree to 3 pages of my posts!
You did say you had fun doing it so... (I hope that was you!)

Just for that I'm disagreeing with all your posts!