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This isn't a duplicate, there are threads going on about how terrible the front end is, but I wanted to get some sense whether there was a real issue, or just the usual internet vocal minority that will complain about everything. It definitely looks like the vocal minority of complainers and...

Clickbait. It's what passes for online journalism these days.

Size has nothing to do with the coefficient of drag. Which is what the .21 refers to. If they achieve .21 it will be from the shape, not the size. So why do you think you are qualified to second guess the engineers/scientist working at Tesla. Maybe you would like to school SpaceX work on...

You mean like using hydrogen for transportation fuel? The reality is they are all going to be CNG based, it which case the extra conversion/cost/containment/transport issues around hydrogen will make it the last choice for Long Haul transportation.

Of course it is not exactly the same. The point remains. What you think aerodynamic looks like, probably isn't correct. Tesla is aiming for 0.21, so it is very unlikely their front is a non-aerodynamic affectation. You can dislike how the front end looks, but really no one here is likely...

This is the same kind of faulty reasoning I mentioned in my last post. Just because BEVs aren't the correct solution to a problem, doesn't mean HFCVs are. Why would anyone used Hydrogen instead of CNG/LNG/DME for big rigs?

What people think is aerodynamic isn't necessarily right. Here is one of the most aerodynamic vehicles ever created, with flat blunt nose:

Fleet usage of CNG is already growing, because of simple economics. It is cheaper and cleaner to run on CNG than diesel. Perhaps not well known is that LA Bus fleet hasn't run a diesel bus in year, the fleet is almost all CNG. Check what garbage trucks almost everywhere are switching to...

I kind of feel the same, and think it would be a shame if Tesla watered it down because of a vocal minority.

There are lot of people posting alternate grill designs. I would like to get a view of how many people really don't like it. I think it is just something new and distinct. Tesla should stick with it, and eventually it could be as iconic as the Porsche 911 front end. They definitely shouldn't...

Free isn't going to work forever. The time to make the change, is when moving to the high volume model, not after they sell 300K of them, and then anyone after a certain serial number doesn't get free supercharging. That would be much more confusing and messy. IMO free supercharging will be a...

I agree, I expect an announcement anytime about either a round of favorable financing, or a stock offering.

I am really not a Falcon door fan (I kind of hated them since they were first shown). But to me I see these as the perfect entrance vehicle for stars at a red carpet. Falcon Door opens up, capturing attention, then reveals starlet, who can exit gracefully from the giant opening... Entrance for...

Yep and that gives you over 30% more volume, and thus 30% more capacity. Depending on current spacing they might have enough room to squeeze in nearly the same amount of cells, or say 10% less cells, they still get a net win.

Less personality smoothed out.

There is every reason to expect this won't be another Model X. You learn more from your mistakes, than you do when things go smoothly. Tesla would have learned a lot from Model X. I would bet every part causing delays with the Model X are related to the unusual Features. Model 3 really...

The Bolt seems to be a perfectly fine Electric Pontiac Vibe, to lease while you wait for your TM3. ;)

Matte paint looks cool, but is hell trying to care for it. Best left to show cars. Hyundai Explains How to Care for Matte Paint Job » AutoGuide.com News

BMW i3 - Features & Specs - Specifications - BMW North America DIN Weight: 2634lbs is what I was referring to. Did BMW forget 200 lbs for the US specs?

Actually the Bolt is closer in size the Honda Fit, Ford Fiesta, not the CRV/Ford Escape. Here is the lengths: Bolt 164" Honda Fit: 160" Honda CRV: 179" Ford Fiesta: 160" Ford Escape: 178" Its a subcompact hatchback, not an SUV.

I lust after that windshield.

You mean GM relying of fleet sales? ;)

SpaceX uses RP-1 for it's rockets, and is Developing a Methane Rocket engine. Long term? So in the Future our cars will have rocket engines? What you are engaged in here here is a Non Sequitur. It has nothing to do with cars.

Everyday, EV enthusiasts are faced by people who are stuck in the past and can't imagine anything but the the same old familiar combustion engines. Now some of those EV enthusiasts, can get past anything but that same old familiar grill, that adorned those combustion engine cars. There is...

I am still having a hard time finding logic in that post. No one is putting a gun to the buyers head and forcing them to buy options. If you want a 35K TM3 you will be able to order/buy one. Also it isn't like GM won't have options, I can add more than $10000 in options to a Volt, it is...

The Chevy is also targeting 200 miles not 215. Since this is just a rehash of the previous thread on the same topic, I point out the same things I said in the previous topic: To get down to a 55 KWh pack size at 215 mile EPA range, the Model 3 would need to be significantly more efficient than...

Already a long thread on exactly this here: Extrapolation of Range and Battery Size(s)

Valets would be ok, if this was a profit center, but it isn't. It looks like Tesla is creating a potential future liability in Supercharger network. Between massive power bills, maintenance, and now Valets, this will be a larger drain on Tesla, the bigger the network gets. The current model...

That is irrelevant. Supercharger use should cost more than charging at home to discourage overuse. I always assumed that Supercharger free for life thing would end with the Model 3. It just doesn't seem sustainable on a wide scale.

I am ready to give up guess/scaling. Even a Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla are ~182", these among the smallest sedans. Hard to believe the Tesla would come in a foot shorter. Though I would like it. I like small cars.

Also expect more dissent and defections from the hydrogen camp as reality sets in: Daimler says batteries have edge over fuel cells: Euro am Sonntag

It isn't long term thinking. It's archaic thinking. Toyota and others are convinced people will always want to visit fueling stations, to fill up their cars. They think 1950's model will predominate in 2050's. But replacing gasoline with Hydrogen. In reality, the whole model of personal...

I am thinking(from previous extrapolations) the Model 3 will be very close to the BMW 3 sedan, so about 182". I overlaid the line drawing of a BMW 3: It looks like wheels moved toward outside, bigger/roomier passenger compartment, bigger doors for the Model 3.

You mean the 200 Mile Leaf that is rumored to be coming someday. OK. Any idea when they are joining the party? As far as the crazy NEDC ratings, it looks like Telsa purposfully underated to not mislead people. Some people complain about EPA, but is actually a pretty achievable number for most...

That wasn't the point. I am wondering if this is starting to shake the confidence of Toyota Management belief that people won't buy EVs because they take too long to refuel. Toyota should have been a natural to develop EVs. Instead the Chairman said: "“The reason why Toyota doesn’t introduce...

Nothing wrong being number 2 EV and getting lots of press comparing you. GM did a really great job for a traditional automaker producing a serious, affordable EV. I really wonder what goes through the minds that brought us this: Toyota Mirai Goes On Sale With '2,000 Preorders' - HybridCars.com

Thanks for the links. C&D is my favorite source because they have much more useful measure for street driving. Rolling start 5-60. It isn't like you will do high RPM clutch dumps or launch control when street driving.Those are pretty much drag racing only. In the real world the Tesla 70d has a...

Bottom of the article: "Disclosure: I am/we are short TSLA." Short stock, wirte slams, Profit??

Even in Snow country AWD is not required. You would be fine without it. OTOH, this is the best AWD system you can buy (IMO), and there is pretty much no downside to having it, other than the initial price increase. So it is both: unnecessary and really quite great. You really can't go...

There are 5 cycles. AFAIK, the AC cycle and High speed cycle combine with your link to create the highway numbers. So there are stop/accelerations mixed in as well. When all is said and done the final EPA combined number is heavily weighted to stop and go driving, and a fairly low overall...

I doubt there will be that much difference. The difference between the 70D and 70 is only a couple of tenths of second. (5.2 and 5.5). I expect it will be more like 5.8 and 5.5, on the base Model 3.

Is it really 5 years, do we see example of improvements in most recent Tesla Models? They would have modern electronics, not 5 year old electronics. Results for the electronics are already great, so this is diminishing returns. Again, (as you noted) not talking about aerodynamic dominated...

There is a whole thread about FWD vs RWD in snow here: Bolt has FWD and Model 3 does not. FWIW, I drive a Miata year round in Eastern Canadian winters (Snow, slush, ice storms...). It's more sure footed than any FWD car I have owned. RWD gets a bad rap mostly from nitwits who try driving on...

IIRC the two motors have their peak efficiency curves out of sync. Tesla then shunts more power to which ever motor is in the better part of it's efficiency curve. So the system as a whole spends more time at a higher efficiency, than a single motor can.

This guy drives to remote steep winter locations in his 2WD Model S: No need for AWD whatsoever, but I guess if you want to stoplight race people in the rain, it could be handy. But very far from necessary.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. They are not fighting to shave 5KWh off the pack. They put in a 60 KWh pack and keep refining the car towards production. Today they know they can achieve ~215 miles with the prototypes, and think they can do better with the final production model. I think this is...

Yes, and it is EPA range we are talking about, not Wh/Mile at set speeds. It's a lot of stop and go and the weight penalty brutalizes range. The i3 is currently the most efficient car on the road, tested by the EPA i3 ~2600lbs/22KWh/81 mile EPA range. = 3.68 mile/KWh, for 215 miles = 58.4 KWh...

It's a 22 KWh pack, 18.8KWh is the amount they use from the pack. Just like Tesla won't use all of it's pack. 22kWh lithium-ion battery pack It's straight forward calculation. Even the most efficent EV you can buy today would require almost 60KWh to have 215 miles of EPA range. And that would...

i3 is still about 10% better than a Model S on the EPA highway as well. EPA "highway" test has lots of stop and go. It is unrealistic to expect the Model 3 to come with less than 60 KWh battery and get an EPA range of 215 miles.

I thought we were talking about EPA range, not advertised numbers. i3 has a 22 KWh pack and delivers 81 EPA miles of range. So it is pretty straight forward: 215miles/(81miles/22KWh)= 58.4 KWh EPA test heavily impacted by vehicle weight and there is no way the Steel/Aluminum M3 is lighter...