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Get rid of Level 5!!!
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
Autonomy is not a binary. There can be various degrees and levels of autonomy.
At present it’s not possible to compare ADAS systems of various OEMs in any meaningful way. The industry should come up with certification process … but I doubt they will do anything that might make Tesla look anything other than bad.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I think you're thinking of automation not autonomy. If a human is directly responsible for the actions of a machine then I don't see how it's analogous to autonomy in any way.
I have no idea what a certification system for ADAS would look like. What would you be trying to certify? Safety?
I'm sympathetic to the idea of a distinction, but really the word "autonomy" has long been used to mean political self-determination, of a state within a federation, a province within a state etc. Nothing traditionally to do with robots, AI or self-driving.
So we're still within the infancy period of the word as applied to self-acting machines, and I'm not sure to whom should be given the mantle of authority when it comes to this distinction.
To me, it feels like "automation" or "automatic" should mean that the machine is performing designated or programmed actions to replace human labor or manipulation. Like an automatic dishwasher that steps through a selected cleaning+drying cycle. But it can include variable operation in response to external conditions, like an automatic transmission that selects drive ratio based on speed and load demand, or automatic dimming headlights or automatic wipers hgat respond to external stimulus.
While " autonomy" or " autonomous" would presumably mean that the machine is making decisions based on more complex criteria, including external stimulus that might not have been anticipated in the work session's activation request. In other words, most people would have the impression that it's doing some thinking, even if not very advanced thinking.
However, this is definitely not a black and white or even a static distinction. As technology evolves, everyday automation does things that might have seemed very advanced before, things that we thought required intelligence to form the proper response. Once achieved, even an L4/5 self-driving car could just be considered an "automatically" driving car, as it's responding to external stimuli also, just a far more complex set of conditions. We probably wouldn't want it to be autonomous ie "self-determining" regarding the decisions of where to go and what laws it wants to follow.
(Though I think that Elon really likes the idea of the car anticipating our needs, or knowing what we need better than we do. His stalkless Refresh S/X maybe has an Autonomous Transmission...)
The evolving distinction evokes that famous Third Law quote from Arthur C Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Once we understand how an advanced technology works and become familiar with it, it seems less impressive. In cars, adaptive-following cruise control and then L DW and then lane-keeping seemed very cool, now we classify it as ordinary, and people here sometimes denigrate Autopilot as being little more than glorified lane-keeping.
So I'd have a hard time arguing that RoboTaxi is Autonomy while FSD beta is only Automation. Maybe Autonomy will always be the thing our machines haven't quite yet achieved - until the day they settle the argument and start ordering us around.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Well you know I think FSD beta is a beta of FSD robotaxi so if a robotaxi is "autonomous" then FSD beta is too.
I feel like the Arthur C. Clarke quote does not apply to machines that do things that humans do easily. Does the average person really find a Waymo magical? I'm skeptical, most people think making a driverless car is easy when it first proposed (Elon is not alone in this!).
Anyway, I'm sticking with driver assist, partially driverless, and driverless as my categories.
The SAE doesn't use the word autonomous:
7.1.1 Autonomous
This term has been used for a long time in the robotics and artificial intelligence research communities to signify systems that have the ability and authority to make decisions independently and self-sufficiently. Over time, this usage was casually broadened to not only encompass decision making, but to represent the entire system functionality, thereby becoming synonymous with automated. This usage obscures the question of whether a so-called “autonomous vehicle” depends on communication and/or cooperation with outside entities for important functionality (such as data acquisition and collection). Some driving automation systems may indeed be autonomous if they perform all of their functions independently and self-sufficiently, but if they depend on communication and/or cooperation with outside entities, they should be considered cooperative rather than autonomous. Some vernacular usages associate autonomous specifically with full driving automation (Level 5), while other usages apply it to all levels of driving automation, and some state legislation has defined it to correspond approximately to any ADS at or above Level 3 (or to any vehicle equipped with such an ADS).
Additionally, in jurisprudence, autonomy refers to the capacity for self-governance. In this sense, also, “autonomous” is a misnomer as applied to automated driving technology, because even the most advanced ADSs are not “self-governing.” Rather, ADSs operate based on algorithms and otherwise obey the commands of users.
For these reasons, this document does not use the popular term “autonomous” to describe driving automation.
I agree with getting rid of L5 since ultimately L4 will meet or exceed human capability because humans will either forget how to drive or they'll be forced out because humans suck.
It won't happen all at once, but gradually.
The whole L5 thing is essentially a myth unless there is some breakthrough with general AI.
It won't happen all at once, but gradually.
The whole L5 thing is essentially a myth unless there is some breakthrough with general AI.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
No I’m not confusing. Think of dregrees of autonomy of the human arm or a deer’s ear. Used in similar ways to degrees of freedom.
Even in the case of an “autonomous” region - foreign affairs and currency might be outside the authority.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I've never heard of body parts being described as having autonomy. What degree of autonomy does FSD beta have? It automates the entire driving task but a human is monitoring and responsible for all its decisions. It seems much more analogous to a master/slave relationship and the state of being a slave is the opposite of autonomy.
This seems even more confusing than the SAE levels!
Elon Musk says Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021
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