Martin Eberhard sues Elon Musk and Tesla Motors

[xcelero.ii]

Ouch.

I've followed Tesla since they came out of "stealth mode" way back in June 2006, and I have to say that nothing in the document conflicts with what was publicly known at the time. It actually fills in quite a lot of gaps, for me.

I'm eager to see Martin's reply to this. I'm especially interested in hearing his side regarding the alleged concealment of the numerous problems with getting the roadster to production... it's a very nasty claim that will shape the rest of his career...

-Ryan

. . . . b u m p.

 

[Kardax]

. . . . b u m p.

I should clarify, though, that not much of what Elon says was publicly known at the time, either. We all knew that the Roadster was taking longer than anyone was expecting, but we never knew the full scope of the problems. Bits and pieces started coming out following Martin's departure, but this is the first time we've heard Elon's side with no punches pulled. This sort of thing has been boiling for years and we're finally seeing it explode.

It's really a landmark document that I hope is well preserved.

Martin's response is absolutely critical if he wants to protect his name. I hope it's as thorough as Elons.

-Ryan

 

[vfx]

To me, the crux of TM's contribution to EVs is the laptop battery idea,

Don't know whose idea it was but I think I remember Martins saying he paid AC Propulsion to build the TZero with lithium batteries.

 

[Chris H.]

Don't know whose idea it was but I think I remember Martins saying he paid AC Propulsion to build the TZero with lithium batteries.

Yes, that's right. Martin invested in ACP and paid for the first Li ion ESS in a tzero. As a result Martin got to drive the tzero as his daily driver for several months. Martin worked with Li ion batteries at NuvoMedia, and that's where the idea of using commodity cells to build a large automotive ESS came from. Martin asked Alan Cocconi about using Li ion cells in cars and Alan showed him some Li ion batteries that he (AC) had used for his airplanes. Alan had also developed a prototype ESS using prismatic cells for auto use. The ACP ESS and the Tesla ESS were different designs since ACP used prismatic cells whereas Tesla (Martin) used the 18650 cells.

 

[JRP3]

Personally I don't think the commodity cell concept is going to spread and will be a small footnote in EV history. Larger prismatics offer many advantages for manufacturers, and most seem to be using them, and they continue to improve.

 

[Kardax]

The transmission problem as described by Elon may not be 100% correct. He states that he and JB always wanted to go with a simple single-speed transmission from the beginning, using a higher torque motor. However, by all indications such a motor wasn't possible until mid-2007 (already missing deadlines) when higher-quality IGBT technology became available. This technology eventually became "drive train 1.5", which shipped after roadster #35 or so.

Since a two-speed was (at the time) the only way to reach Musk's performance goals, Martin can't be held entirely responsible for that fiasco.

I've got nothing on the other issues, though :|

-Ryan

 

[Picasso]

Mmm popcorn

I wonder what movie will be out first? The Story of Tesla, or Revenge of the Electric Car? Or how much of Revenge will be about Tesla? Seems we have a good screen play going here.


ME should get a differnt lawyer. Not sure his current pick is best to fight this beast.
Yosef Peretz
http://www.kletterperetz.com/peretz.html

 

[WarpedOne]

I've got nothing on the other issues, though :|

I have. Everyone that expects me to believe that a competent electrical engineer thinks that problems will disappear just by ignoring them is insulting my intelligence and EM is doing just that. I'm not buying his spin. He still thinks he can treat people like objects and distort the things to his likings.

Money does not buy truth.

 

[Palpatine]

Money does not buy truth.

But it does buy PR.

 

[AnOutsider]

I have. Everyone that expects me to believe that a competent electrical engineer thinks that problems will disappear just by ignoring them is insulting my intelligence and EM is doing just that. I'm not buying his spin. He still thinks he can treat people like objects and distort the things to his likings.

Money does not buy truth.

Not that it matters in the end, but out of curiosity, is there ANYTHING TM could release that would change your mind on what really happened?

 

[chronopublish]

I have. Everyone that expects me to believe that a competent electrical engineer thinks that problems will disappear just by ignoring them is insulting my intelligence and EM is doing just that. I'm not buying his spin. He still thinks he can treat people like objects and distort the things to his likings.

Money does not buy truth.

Actually human beings are remarkably good at putting on blinders when confronted with huge problems that they do not wish to see. A good example of this is the Tenerife airport disaster in which an extremely experienced pilot attempted to take off with no visibility and no clearance, colliding with an another plane on the runway and killing everyone on-board.

I'm not suggesting that this was the case with Martin, but it is not a ludicrously implausible scenario in my opinion.

 

[Chris H.]

The transmission problem as described by Elon may not be 100% correct. He states that he and JB always wanted to go with a simple single-speed transmission from the beginning, using a higher torque motor. However, by all indications such a motor wasn't possible until mid-2007 (already missing deadlines) when higher-quality IGBT technology became available. This technology eventually became "drive train 1.5", which shipped after roadster #35 or so.

Since a two-speed was (at the time) the only way to reach Musk's performance goals, Martin can't be held entirely responsible for that fiasco.

I've got nothing on the other issues, though :|

-Ryan

This is an example of EM's "revised" version of Tesla's history. In the early years it was Martin that wanted a single-speed transmission, and Elon who insisted on a two-speed. The following is from Martin's blog on January 8th, 2008:

Martin sez:

As noted in Elon’s Inc magazine issue, I argued for a simple, one-speed transmission for the first year or two of Roadster production to reduce risk. I felt that the performance upgrade of the two-speed would be a nice mid-life kicker for the Roadster, and that we could sell every car we could make, even if it had a one-speed transmission (and a fiberglass body, and door sills that are too high, and conventional door latches, and less-than-perfect glossy finish on the airbag hatch on the dashboard, for that matter.) Elon felt that the very first model of the Roadster had to be the best car possible, and felt that the risk was worth it. You decide.
Comment by Jim January 8, 2008 @ 11:28 am

The Inc. Magazine article that Martin is referring to is here:

Elon Musk - Entrepreneur of the Year - Tesla Motors -SpaceX

The article is from December 2007. On page 5, it says:

“At Tesla, Musk has issued directives on seat cushions, the shape of the headlights, even the style of trunk on the company's forthcoming midrange sedan--an odd request given that his engineers have yet to figure out how exactly the thing is going to be powered. The most controversial of Musk's edicts involved the transmission. Martin Eberhard, Tesla's co-founder and then-CEO, argued that it would be quicker and easier to build the car with a single-speed transmission. Musk ordered a two-speed model so that the Roadster would be able reach a top speed of well over 100 miles per hour.”

So, now Elon tries to convince everyone that it was really the other way around, and he blames the problems with the transmission on Martin instead of accepting the responsibility himself.

 

[Chris H.]

In addition, here's a great post from TEG from the same thread on the same day:

Martin wrote: Unfortunately, the unique requirements of the Roadster make existing transmissions unsuitable, even though the transmission it needs is not rocket science.
But isn’t EM the “master of rocket science”? It is somewhat shocking that such a down to earth little problem is still beyond their grasp so far.
Martin Wrote:
As noted in Elon’s Inc magazine issue, I argued for a simple, one-speed transmission for the first year or two of Roadster production to reduce risk.
Yeah, you might have noticed in the TM blogs that I had suggested repeatedly that a one-speed made more sense. I had no idea how much trouble you were having with the transmission, nor that it wasn’t your decision, but it just made sense to me for a number of other reasons:
1. One less engineering challenge for the small team.
2. Avoids a situation of prolonged heat stress on the air-cooled eMotor (during excessive top speed runs).
3. Doesn’t make much sense with the limited energy storage of batteries (range at 130mph is likely not very far)
4. You were trying to use much pre-proven technology and one-speed is the norm for production EVs.
5. Street cars meant for USA only have no business going more than 90MPH anyways.
Martin wrote: a fiberglass body
Oh, I didn’t realize (until now) that carbon fiber body was another decision made for you. I have concerns over that decision as well, but (so far) there aren’t reports of problems there.
Like with the idea of the one speed transmission, I would have voted for fiberglass as well just as a cost reduction effort. We saw the Roadster price go up during the development stage… I had been hoping it would have gone down instead.
It sounds like parts of the Roadster were designed by “Fiat” (intentional double entendre)
Martin wrote: conventional door latches
Sigh… I noticed at Pebble Beach that the rubber button door latches were malfunctioning. I didn’t blog about it because I figured it was something you had under control. Sorry to hear it was another thing you tried to avoid.
Perhaps your next product company will have more strict rules about who gets to redesign the product and when the design decisions are locked down. I know how it goes when someone comes in at the 11th hour and just asks you to absorb yet another minor little “improvement”.
Martin wrote: less-than-perfect glossy finish on the airbag hatch on the dashboard
You should see how much difference in texture there is on the passenger airbag cover from the rest of the dash on my Lexus…
Martin wrote: Elon felt that the very first model of the Roadster had to be the best car possible, and felt that the risk was worth it. You decide.
Yes, I did decide.
My cliche catalog runneth over:
“Death of a thousand cuts.”
“The devil is in the details.”
“…one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration.”
The Roadster only really needs “bragging rights” in a few metrics:
#1: Best 0-60 for a production EV
#2: Longest range of a production EV
#3: Best handling production EV
#4: Best looking production EV
All the rest of those bells and whistles were unnecessary fluff.
Comment by TEG January 8, 2008 @ 1:04 pm

Good stuff TEG. I wish that you still felt free enough to comment on this situation.

 

[AnOutsider]

So, now Elon tries to convince everyone that it was really the other way around, and he blames the problems with the transmission on Martin instead of accepting the responsibility himself.

Extremely compelling evidence. Can't wait to see ME's reply to the post

 

[Chris H.]

Here's a short, but reasonably balanced, report on the situation from BusinessWeek:

Tesla's electric Vaudeville - BusinessWeek

Perhaps. But if Eberhard was running overboard on costs, Musk was the chairman and had a role in either approving or missing it all. Also, I once interviewed Michael Marks, one of two CEOs hired between 2007 when Eberhard was pushed out and 2008 when Musk took that title himself, and he said some of Tesla’s cost issues stemmed from the fact that parts suppliers didn’t believe they were legit. So they charged a lot more even for basics. It was tough to get anything cheaply. He did not blame Eberhard. As an aside, rarely have too men fought so much over a company making so little money.

 

[Kevin Harney]

you would think a writer would know the difference between too and two darn those spell checkers they don't always work

 

[AnOutsider]

you would think a writer would know the difference between too and two darn those spell checkers they don't always work

haha I noticed that too... good read though.

 

[vfx]

We had heard this about the transmissions. They could not get the majors to make anything for them because Tesla only wanted a small quantity in relation to what the manufactures were used to supplying. Prices that were finally agreed on were very high.

Now multiply that debacle times two.

 

[vfx]

you would think a writer would know the difference between too and two darn those spell checkers they don't always work

And there was this at the end:

and the hordes of green blogs who watch Tesla’s ever move is bad

More spellcheck laxitude.

 

[Kevin Harney]

We had heard this about the transmissions. They could not get the majors to make anything for them because Tesla only wanted a small quantity in relation to what the manufactures were used to supplying. Prices that were finally agreed on were very high.

Now multiply that debacle times two.

perhaps we should multiple that by TOO :biggrin: