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We must face facts - meat is the problem

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^ Factory meat farms, factory fish, it's all in the name of lower cost, but high nutritional content foods as our society expanded to billions of people.

If I lived East Coast Canada, I would absolutely buy locally caught seafood. Whereas living near Toronto, my options are based on what the local order online and pick up without interaction options I have available during COVID (no going directly to a market for me). Sadly, this forces us into more commonly available fish which we cannot specifically choose the origin.
 
^ Factory meat farms, factory fish, it's all in the name of lower cost, but high nutritional content foods as our society expanded to billions of people.

If I lived East Coast Canada, I would absolutely buy locally caught seafood. Whereas living near Toronto, my options are based on what the local order online and pick up without interaction options I have available during COVID (no going directly to a market for me). Sadly, this forces us into more commonly available fish which we cannot specifically choose the origin.
Locally caught seafood is usually trawler or long line. Both damaging to the environment. Plus lots of wasted by catch.
 

According to a new study out of NYU, these companies have spent millions of dollars lobbying against climate policies and funding dubious research that tries to blur the links between animal agriculture and our climate emergency. The biggest link is that about 14 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions come from meat and dairy.

Six of the big US groups — the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association, the National Pork Producers Council, the North American Meat Institute, the National Chicken Council, the International Dairy Foods Association, and the American Farm Bureau Federation — have together spent about $200 million in lobbying since 2000. And they’ve been lobbying annually against climate policies like cap-and-trade, the Clean Air Act, and regulations that would require farms to report emissions.

Industry-funded research isn’t always necessarily flawed. But it’s certainly fair to wonder about the integrity of industry-funded research that happens to advance that industry’s goals. As Undark has reported, you might read a white paper that paints a hopeful picture of the cattle industry’s emissions, only to then realize that the co-authors run dairy groups or received livestock industry funding.


This happens in adjacent industries, too: You might hear a scientist denying that overfishing is a major problem, say, only to then find out that they’ve received funding from fisheries and seafood industry groups.
 
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I enjoy bicycling a lot and am often seen leaving my house by bicycle. A few weeks ago one of my neighbors stopped by, was looking over the solar panels on my roof and the Tesla in my driveway and started talking about climate change.

He was asking if I knew how much emissions a bicyclist is responsible for per mile compared to a gas powered car. I'm not really sure where he was going with this and kinda dumbfounded said "gas powered what?" and didn't have much more to say. I've always thought of a bicycle as zero emission transportation, and didn't really want to go on about all the reasons I think fossil fuels are bad.

Kinda curious though I looked it up later and found some interesting info - a bicyclist on a diet of mostly meat could actually be responsible for more greenhouse emissions per mile than a very fuel efficient gas car when you consider their food source and the energy required. This is especially true if you consider a car with multiple occupants and the emissions per passenger.

To me this doesn't really say anything good about the gas car per say, just re-iterates my existing viewpoint that meat is bad. I've been a staunch vegan for years and vegetarian most my life, although have never been very vocal about my diet and lifestyle.

When you look at the greenhouse emissions of a bicyclist on a plant based diet, it's a very small fraction of the meat based bicyclist or the gas car. In fact the plant based diet can actually have a positive impact on the environment.

I didn't choose this diet because of concerns for the environment though, I just never liked the idea of eating animals. From a young age I never cared for the idea of eating meat. Just seems unethical, doesn't feel right in my heart.

I've also come to believe it can be a much healthier diet, and have embraced the whole food, plant based diet which has been shown to prevent and even cure some of the most common health ailments, including heart disease, diabetes and cancer.

Armed with this knowledge I don't think I could ever go back to eating meat again.

Eating healthy isn't a given with a vegan diet though, there certainly is plenty of junk food that is still vegan or plant based that can be hazardous to human health. But there is plenty of very delicious, healthy plant based food, and I've converted numerous friends and family members to this diet and none of them go back. It can be a challenge at first but with the right resources it becomes easy and routine, and best of all you feel great.

I've seen and talked to my neighbor several times since he brought up climate change, but haven't revisited the topic or the bicycle vs gas car thought experiment. I don't know how to bring this topic up without sounding condescending as he still owns gas cars and I'm not sure if he eats meat or not.
 
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Clam hunters’ supertool has California worried: ‘It might be too good’
“If you were digging, it takes a few minutes to pop out a clam, but it takes only 10 to 15 seconds with the pump,” says Mastrup. “The clams come out beautiful, with no shovel cuts. As a clammer I’m jealous, but as a resource manager, it might be too good. Our clam fishery was sustainable with the old tools and methods.
 
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Kinda curious though I looked it up later and found some interesting info - a bicyclist on a diet of mostly meat could actually be responsible for more greenhouse emissions per mile than a very fuel efficient gas car when you consider their food source and the energy required. This is especially true if you consider a car with multiple occupants and the emissions per passenger.

Does this consider the amount of energy (and carbon emissions) required/created in finding, drilling-for, pumping, transporting and refining oil, plus transporting the gasoline to the fuel station and then pumping it into the car? I'm guessing not. It's probably just looking at the emissions from the car vs. emissions from the cyclist PLUS the creating of the food.

I agree that meat production is energy-intensive, but I doubt it's worse than fuel production.
 
Does this consider the amount of energy (and carbon emissions) required/created in finding, drilling-for, pumping, transporting and refining oil, plus transporting the gasoline to the fuel station and then pumping it into the car? I'm guessing not. It's probably just looking at the emissions from the car vs. emissions from the cyclist PLUS the creating of the food.

I agree that meat production is energy-intensive, but I doubt it's worse than fuel production.
I believe all those factors required for producing the fuel for the car were considered, but keep in mind a lot of processes are also required for producing a single pound of meat (growing food for the animals, feed for livestock requires vast resources). I was very skeptical this could be the case too, I didn't do the calculations myself, here is the source:


"What about a meat-heavy diet, the Paleo diet? I looked at Paleo meal plans and academic lifecycle GHG estimates for the foods in those meal plans, and estimated the average emissions of a Paleo diet to be 5.4 gCO2e/kcal [v]. This gives us 135 gCO2e/km, very close to the Prius. What about a vegan? Vegan diets have much lower emissions, around 1.6 gCO2e/kcal [vi], for 40 gCO2e/km. This means that a biking vegan has less than a third the impact of an individual driving a Prius, and 1/7th the impact of an individual driving an average car."

You'd be surprised at how much energy is used in the production of a single pound of meat for typical human consumption:

"Pound for pound, meat has a much higher water footprint than vegetables, grains or beans. A single pound of beef takes, on average, 1,800 gallons of water to produce. Ninety-eight percent goes to watering the grass, forage and feed that cattle consume over their lifetime."

I still believe the average persons diet has some meat, but not nearly the all-beef diet required for your carbon footprint of bicycling per mile to approach that of an efficient gas car.

another source:


The Top 8 Reasons to Eat Plant-Based for World Water Day
1. Farming (animal and plant) accounts for about 70 percent of water used in the world today, up to 92 percent of freshwater, with nearly one-third of that related to animal farming and growing crops to feed to animals.
2. Most of the total volume of water used for animal agriculture (98 percent) refers to the water footprint of the feed for the animals. About one-third of the world’s grain and 80 percent of the world’s soya is fed to the animals we rear for food.
3. Intensive animal farming can cause serious water pollution such as eutrophication, an excessive amount of algae in the water caused by run-off of animal faeces and leftover feed, often leading to loss of fish and other aquatic wildlife.
4. On average it takes between 15,000 and 20,000 litres of water to produce one kilogram of beef, which works out to approximately 3,000 litres of water to produce one 200g beef burger – the equivalent of 30 x 5-minute showers. (1x 200g beef burger = 30x 5-minute showers).
5. 96 percent of fish eaten in Europe comes from fresh-water fish farming, but the vast quantities of fish excrement and uneaten fish food that settles on the pond bed makes the perfect environment for the production of the greenhouse gas methane.
6. A meat-free diet can cut our water footprint in half! Studies show that a healthy meat-free diet reduces our water footprint by up to 55%.
7. The United Nations Environment Assembly says that plant-based burgers require between 75 – 99 per cent less water; 93 – 95 per cent less land; and generate 87 – 90 per cent fewer emissions than regular beef burgers.
8. “A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use. It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” said University of Oxford’s Joseph Poore, who led the most comprehensive analysis of the damage farming does to the planet.
 
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meat isn’t the problem, it’s a solution.

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meat isn’t the problem, it’s a solution.

ewwww.......

"I don’t have much time for marketing stunts, but the Wesker and Son pop-up butchers at London’s Smithfield Market piqued my interest. Organised by the publishers of the upcoming Resident Evil 6 video game, Wesker and Son sells meat made to look like human body parts. I managed to sneak in without revealing my identity and managed to get a look around. Sadly the man on duty wasn’t actually a butcher so he wasn’t able to tell me much about the pork used. Still, Wesker and Son is nothing if not a giggle and is open Friday 28th and Saturday 29th September"

 
Does this consider the amount of energy (and carbon emissions) required/created in finding, drilling-for, pumping, transporting and refining oil, plus transporting the gasoline to the fuel station and then pumping it into the car? I'm guessing not. It's probably just looking at the emissions from the car vs. emissions from the cyclist PLUS the creating of the food.

I agree that meat production is energy-intensive, but I doubt it's worse than fuel production.

I was very skeptical that this might be the case and still am, finding it very hard to believe that a car that weighs 2 tons and powered by an internal combustion engine could be as efficient as a human on a bicycle weighing a fraction of the car. I've definitely read mixed things online comparing bicycling to cars and still would never claim that driving or riding in a car is better for the environment overall than bicycling. I still commend those that lead an active cyclist lifestyle and minimize their car usage doing so. Would love to see more bicycles and less cars in this world. And all cars electric, if this were a perfect world!

I'm not against cars but think things have gotten out of hand, at least where I live. A lot of people around here don't go anywhere unless it's in their car, and usually a mediocre car they don't really like driving. Some of them commute 60+ miles each way every day to a job they could easily do remotely (from home!). They will drive 100 miles to go for a bike ride and then drive home the same day. I worked with a guy that would brag about how many gallons of gas he burned over the weekend, towing his gas powered toys 5+ hours up north for the weekend and toying around all weekend along. It's really asinine when you think about the energy required and the impact to the planet. I'm not against taking long trips in your car, traveling the world, but let it be a valuable, special experience, not mundane activity required to get somewhere you don't need to be.

I love my Tesla's and have driven 15k+ miles in less than a year in them, but don't drive to work anymore. I love what Tesla is doing but think we should still caution about taking a car-centric lifestyle for granted. Let it be part of our life but don't let it dominate it at the cost of the natural environment. I grew up with the car centric lifestyle that I'm sure most of us take for granted and even embrace, and still don't even question as being remotely bad. But if you really care about climate change and keeping this planet in tact for future generations we shouldn't be rushing into the whole cybertruck lifestyle and trying to do everything someone with a gas car would ever do, without at least a bit of forethought. I still hope Cybertruck sells well and enables people to do these things with less impact, but I don't want to see it on a large scale.

I have a history of these gas powered toys myself, so admit I've set the example that many others have followed, owning motorboats, motorcycles, numerous gas cars, vans, trucks. I'm not against these things but I no longer desire them like I did in the past. I sold my last motorboat last summer after getting uneasy about filling up big gas cans and walking them down my dock to pour in my boat for just a days outing on the water. Especially when we often enjoy ourselves and have a better day when we don't take the motorboat out. Not to say boats can't be fun and I'll never own one again.

Going back to meat, there is also mixed things about the energy required for meat production, and I'm sure it varies dramatically with type of meat and source. I never condemn people for choosing to eat meat, my kids eat meat. I just don't advocate it and am adamant it's not vital to human health. It's overdone in America, pushed into people's faces with cheap marketing tactics, subsidized by the government, and responsible for far more harm than good in my opinion. The meat and dairy content in the average american diet is a very clear detriment to people's health, much moreso than most people realize. Certain diets that people embrace that are very heavy in meat and dairy can actually have higher death rate than someone smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. It's been demonstrated that heartdisease cannot only be prevented but cured with diet alone, albiet a very strick whole food plant based diet that not everyone has the discipline to adhere to. Similar evidence exists for many types of cancer, showing a very clear correlation between meat consumption and cancer occurrence.
 
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I sold my last motorboat last summer after getting uneasy about filling up big gas cans and walking them down my dock to pour in my boat for just a days outing on the water. Especially when we often enjoy ourselves and have a better day when we don't take the motorboat out. Not to say boats can't be fun and I'll never own one again

I've enjoyed your posts.
FYI , Electric outboard motors are a thing now, you didn't "need" to sell your boat : Electric Outboard Motors: All You Need to Know (Best Picks in 2021)
 
I've enjoyed your posts.
FYI , Electric outboard motors are a thing now, you didn't "need" to sell your boat : Electric Outboard Motors: All You Need to Know (Best Picks in 2021)
Thanks,
I've bought and sold many boats through the years, and still own boats, but they are all man-powered at the moment. The motorboat I sold was a bit of a money pit, had a big gas engine that I didn't like, was kinda a pain to maintain and own, just more hassle than it was worth to me. I had to make special trips just to get work done on the boat, usually paid someone else to do yearly maintaintence and storage was expensive. Then we used it maybe once or twice a summer, and could have easily rented a boat for less money, and probably would have had more fun doing so and may do that this summer.

Right now I have several kayaks and small craft, one old aluminum rowboat that has had several ouatboard gas motors on it over the years. Could probably put an electric outboard motor like you suggest on that and in fact am seriously considering it. Was hoping to charge exclusively with solar power, still trying to figure out the best way to do that since the place has lots of trees that I want to keep. Maybe just a large mobile setup that I can put on the dock (or on a boat?)
 
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Thanks,
I've bought and sold many boats through the years, and still own boats, but they are all man-powered at the moment. The motorboat I sold was a bit of a money pit, had a big gas engine that I didn't like, was kinda a pain to maintain and own, just more hassle than it was worth to me. I had to make special trips just to get work done on the boat, usually paid someone else to do yearly maintaintence and storage was expensive. Then we used it maybe once or twice a summer, and could have easily rented a boat for less money, and probably would have had more fun doing so and may do that this summer.

Right now I have several kayaks and small craft, one old aluminum rowboat that has had several ouatboard gas motors on it over the years. Could probably put an electric outboard motor like you suggest on that and in fact am seriously considering it. Was hoping to charge exclusively with solar power, still trying to figure out the best way to do that since the place has lots of trees that I want to keep. Maybe just a large mobile setup that I can put on the dock (or on a boat?)
I have a kayak with a small electric trolling motor and a 100w solar panel with lfp batteries. I can travel all day.
 
Mark Bittman’s warning: the true costs of our cheap food and the American diet

In a sweeping deconstruction of the history of food, spanning the past 10,000 years of organized agriculture, Bittman takes in everything from Mesopotamian irrigation to the Irish famine to the growth of McDonald’s to posit the rise of uniformity and convenience in food has mostly benefited large companies, fueled societal inequities and ravaged human health and the environment. Al Gore, the former US vice president, has called the book a “must-read for policymakers, activists and concerned citizens looking to better understand our food system and how to fix it”.
The Irish famine was the first well known one and I guess you could say the first politically caused famine as opposed to more environmentally caused famine. They’re all complicated, but the Irish potato famine can definitely be laid at the feet of the English who had converted most of Ireland’s peasant farmland into grazing lands for both animals, the meat of which was destined to be sent over the Irish Sea.
But we do have a choice between whether we subsidize bad agriculture or subsidize good agriculture. Whether we subsidize the production of junk food or subsidize the production of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.
 
Going vegan: can switching to a plant-based diet really save the planet?
In 2018, scientists behind the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage of farming to the planet found avoiding meat and dairy products was the single biggest way to reduce your environmental impact on the planet. The research show0ed that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world.
He added that the overwhelming majority of emissions were due to foods such as beef and dairy, which “means that without changing emissions associated with those products it is hard to make progress”. He said there were no good technical solutions for the fact that “cows emit methane emissions”.
 

So this is going to be a column about finding a way to work with humanity’s growing appetite for meat rather than against it. All we need to do is replace the animals, or at least a lot of them. Technologically, we’re closer to that than you might think. What we need is for government to put money and muscle behind the project — just as it’s doing for electric cars and weatherized homes and renewable energy — so that the future happens fast enough to save the present. This is the hole in the American Jobs Plan, and it wouldn’t take much money, just a bit of vision, to fill.
Let me first lay out the urgency of the task and the rewards we could reap. As best we can tell, the novel coronavirus jumped from bats, to some other animal, to humans, with the locus of infection being a Chinese meat market. There’s nothing unusual about that. Swine flus — yes, plural — jump from pigs to humans. Avian flus jump from birds to humans. Ebola most likely came from monkeys. “Preventing the Next Pandemic,” a report by the United Nations Environment Program, estimates that 75 percent of the new infectious diseases that threaten humans come from animals.
The U.N. report goes on to name the seven major drivers of these emerging animal-to-human diseases. First is the increasing demand for animal protein. As populations get richer, they eat more meat. Since 1961, global meat production has more than quadrupled, to more than 340 million tons from 71 million tons. Americans are among the top meat consumers in the world: In 2018, each of us ate, on average, 222 pounds of red meat and chicken. Consumption in most other countries is far lower, but rising. In China, for instance, per capita meat consumption has more than doubled since 1990.
 
Save the meat beer!

Republicans falsely claim Biden wants to restrict meat in climate crisis fight
Prominent Republicans seized upon the supposed Biden climate diktat – which does not exist. The Texas governor, Greg Abbott, retweeted a claim of a 4lb-a-year meat allocation with the comment: “Not gonna happen in Texas!” The far-right conspiracy theorist Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican representative, called Biden the “Hamburglar” while Garret Graves, ostensibly a more moderate House Republican, said the president’s plan amounted to “dictatorship”.
 
The low-hanging fruit in the climate battle? Cutting down on meat | Gaby Hinsliff

This week, the American recipe website Epicurious announced that, for environmental reasons, it wouldn’t publish any new beef recipes. No more steaks, burgers or creative ways with mince; no more juicy rib. Since about 15% of global greenhouse gas emissions come from livestock farming, with beef responsible for nearly two thirds of those, it wanted to help home cooks do their bit. All this seems guaranteed to trigger the sort of people who get very emotional about roast beef and yorkshire pudding, particularly in the same week that the White House had to quash some wild scare stories about Joe Biden banning burgers to save the planet. (Spoiler alert: not happening.) But the twist in the tale is that Epicurious actually stopped publishing beef recipes a year ago without telling anyone, and it says its traffic numbers show the vegetarian recipes offered instead were gobbled up. Those who scream loudest don’t, as ever, speak for everyone.This week, the American recipe website Epicurious announced that, for environmental reasons, it wouldn’t publish any new beef recipes. No more steaks, burgers or creative ways with mince; no more juicy rib. Since about 15% of global greenhouse gas emissions come from livestock farming, with beef responsible for nearly two thirds of those, it wanted to help home cooks do their bit. All this seems guaranteed to trigger the sort of people who get very emotional about roast beef and yorkshire pudding, particularly in the same week that the White House had to quash some wild scare stories about Joe Biden banning burgers to save the planet. (Spoiler alert: not happening.) But the twist in the tale is that Epicurious actually stopped publishing beef recipes a year ago without telling anyone, and it says its traffic numbers show the vegetarian recipes offered instead were gobbled up. Those who scream loudest don’t, as ever, speak for everyone.
People hate being told what to eat, which is why social media is still full of furious Republicans shouting at Biden to “get out of my kitchen”. But the Epicurious episode suggests it’s the idea of being nagged or lectured that really hurts; the actual reality of eating other things instead of meat can be surprisingly palatable. Progress may, in short, be easier than it sometimes sounds.
 
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Not sure it's been mentioned in this thread yet but preliminary studies have shown that a very small amount of seaweed added to cow feed can reduce their methane production by up to 82 %


Over the course of five months last summer, Kebreab and Roque added scant amounts of seaweed to the diet of 21 beef cattle and tracked their weight gain and methane emissions. Cattle that consumed doses of about 80 grams (3 ounces) of seaweed gained as much weight as their herd mates while burping out 82 percent less methane into the atmosphere. Kebreab and Roque are building on their earlier work with dairy cattle, which was the world’s first experiment reported that used seaweed in cattle.

I don't see greenhouse gasses and meat as being an insurmountable obstacle