What really is the difference between the brake discs, callipers and pads?

[jipvk]

What is the difference between the 'normal' Model 3 brakes vs the Model 3 Performance upgrade brake system?

I can't find much about it...

Are the discs different? Are the callipers different? Are the pads different? Or is it mostly visual (the red colour.)

Thanks, and sorry if this is posted somewhere, but all I can find is speculation and threads from a few years ago.

 

[Igorekgq]

What is the difference between the 'normal' Model 3 brakes vs the Model 3 Performance upgrade brake system?

I can't find much about it...

Are the discs different? Are the callipers different? Are the pads different? Or is it mostly visual (the red colour.)

Thanks, and sorry if this is posted somewhere, but all I can find is speculation and threads from a few years ago.

Everything is different even the hubs for the wheels.

 

[kwoody51]

I don’t know exact difference but my understanding is
Larger brake rotors
Brembo caliper
Pads not sure

Larger rotors and brembo calipers won’t lead to shorter stops (sticky tires will). Larger rotors and better calipers will allow repeatable stopping distance.

Google brake fade and you will understand better.

Hard stops = lots of heat.
Repeated hard stops = heat soak and loss of effectiveness.
Larger rotors= better ability to control heat

Other may disagree but unless you are tracking your car the upgraded brakes will have NO impact on your driving experience. You do get cool looking painted red calipers so everyone knows you have the ‘fancy’ version

 

[dandrewk]

From https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...el-3-long-range-dual-motor-first-test-review/:

"Stopping from 60 mph in 113 feet is fine but hardly spectacular. It's a few feet better than the rear-drive car thanks to an increased regenerative braking effect from the front motor. (Rear motors applying too much regenerative braking can destabilize the car, so they can't regenerate to their full potential.) The Performance model's big brakes and sticky tires haul it down in a far more impressive 99 feet. Numbers-wise, again, the non-Performance all-wheel-drive car comes in at Hellcat performance levels. In practice, Tesla remains the benchmark in blending regenerative and mechanical braking in a way that's not only seamless but also feels as good as a better than average pure mechanical system."

The P brakes are beefier, the wheels/tires are stickier. Both of these add to the overall weight, so it's not surprising that the P's range is lower than LR/AWD.

But as @kwoody51 said, the beefier brakes are designed for track usage. And while the shorter 60-0 distance is great, the P can go faster/quicker than the LR/AWD, which conceivably would mean real-world higher stopping distance due to increase speed.

 

[jipvk]

Thanks for the answers, I often drive long distances in Germany, and have always enjoyed my short braking distance with my BMW in cases where someone came on the left most lane abruptly without looking in their mirrors. A faster stopping power is a nice thing to have.

 

[DrtyJrze]

IMO, people love to go fast, but don’t appreciate the importance of being able to stop. I’m a fan of “the more brake, the merrier” philosophy.

I do agree that if you’re not gonna press the car and/or track it, standard brakes should be fine. But if you plan on pushing the limits, brake fade is a real and scary thing, lol.

 

[Knightshade]

From https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...el-3-long-range-dual-motor-first-test-review/:

"Stopping from 60 mph in 113 feet is fine but hardly spectacular. It's a few feet better than the rear-drive car thanks to an increased regenerative braking effect from the front motor. (Rear motors applying too much regenerative braking can destabilize the car, so they can't regenerate to their full potential.) The Performance model's big brakes and sticky tires haul it down in a far more impressive 99 feet.

That difference is, 100 percent from the tire difference.

Owners with the "regular" brakes who switched to the same tires the P comes with got comparable results.


The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.


Brake upgrades can be useful on a track where you have to brake from 100+ mph repeatedly without letting the brakes cool off.

In driving on public roads they won't matter at all unless you're evading police pursuit.... and even then they won't, and physically can't, stop the car any shorter than the stock brakes do the first time.



I highly suggest anybody unclear on this read this excellent article-

GRM Pulp Friction


Author designs OEM brake systems, teachs SAE master classes on brake design, and has literally written books on the topic.

He explains what each part of the braking system can (and can NOT) do for you...and why if you want to actually reduce stopping distance you need to upgrade your tires not your brakes.

 

[dandrewk]

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.

So then what is the point of anti-lock brakes?

Serious question.

 

[CUBldr97]

So then what is the point of anti-lock brakes?

Serious question.

to keep the tires from sliding, sliding tires don't slow you down faster.

 

[640k]

So then what is the point of anti-lock brakes?

Serious question.

you know in the movies and on TV when a car stops and everything SCREEEECHES? that's called wheel lock and that's what anti-lock brakes prevent, but that's not why they're utilized. the real reason anti-lock brakes are used is so that you can steer out of a potential situation while applying brake pressure.

before anti-lock brakes, the way you were taught to drive a car was the PUMP the brakes in an emergency, in snow, during an accident, etc. however, the majority of people could not do both at the same time. innate response is to slam on the brakes and then try to steer to avoid a collision. if your wheels are locked up, you can't steer the car, no matter how hard you try. with anti-lock brakes, the brakes pulse the wheel, returning control to the driver.

if you've ever slammed on your brakes (like REALLY slammed), your brakes will make a grinding noise (and in some older cars will actually shudder/make a continual thumping. this is when the anti-lock braking system (ABS) kicks in.

 

[DopeGhoti]

My understanding was also that while a tire is skidding, it is actually slowing the car less than when it is not.

 

[640k]

BTW to address an earlier poster about brake fade, heat build up, etc. in everyday situations, the likelihood of experiencing brake fade is slim to none. you need to continually brake/gas/brake/gas at a high rate of speed, over and over again, before heat becomes an issue. what happens is the heat creates a barrier between the two components, which can prevent the brake pads from making proper contact with the rotor. some performance braking systems have venting to eliminate this issue, but there's even a lot of controversy surrounding the benefits of that.

 

[dandrewk]

to keep the tires from sliding, sliding tires don't slow you down faster.

Yes I know. I was responding to the quote. If it’s tires that “stop” the car, not the brakes, then why do larger tires decrease stopping distance?

Anti-lock brakes do just what they say. So why wouldn’t larger, beefier brakes improve stopping distance?

 

[640k]

My understanding was also that while a tire is skidding, it is actually slowing the car less than when it is not.

a sliding tire is not stopping the vehicle, which is part of the reason pumping your brakes in a non ABS vehicle is beneficial.

think back to when you were a kid. every do skid marks with your bike? ever notice how you kind of just keep sliding? think about drifting. cars that slide around and around corners. their wheels are basically stopped.

 

[640k]

Yes I know. I was responding to the quote. If it’s tires that “stop” the car, not the brakes, then why do larger tires decrease stopping distance?

Anti-lock brakes do just what they say. So why wouldn’t larger, beefier brakes improve stopping distance.

larger tiers = more rolling resistance. wider tires may help with contact patch, which may help with stopping distance. at the end of the day, it's the construction of the tire, related to the duty it is performing.

an A/S tire is average at everything.
a summer tire is going to perform better in heat
a winter performance tire is going to perform better in colder conditions

etc. etc.

 

[kkillebrew]

Some make a lot more "brake dust" than others that's for sure.

 

[dandrewk]

larger tiers = more rolling resistance. wider tires may help with contact patch, which may help with stopping distance. at the end of the day, it's the construction of the tire, related to the duty it is performing.

an A/S tire is average at everything.
a summer tire is going to perform better in heat
a winter performance tire is going to perform better in colder conditions

etc. etc.

Understood. So then why does Tesla upgrade brakes for P trim? If it’s only to minimize overheating (since it’s the tires that make the difference), would putting larger wheels on a stealth equal the stopping distance of a P (ignoring the increased curb weight)?

On the same note, would choosing 19” rims improve stopping distance on a stealth?

 

[Knightshade]

Yes I know. I was responding to the quote. If it’s tires that “stop” the car, not the brakes, then why do larger tires decrease stopping distance?

"larger" tires don't.

Stickier tires do.

So why wouldn’t larger, beefier brakes improve stopping distance?

Why would they?

Once you're applying enough braking force to reach the traction limits of the tire/road interface- which even the stock brakes can do on any recent/modern car, why would MOAR FORCE do anything useful at all?

You have no more tire traction to make use of at that point.

 

[Knightshade]

Understood. So then why does Tesla upgrade brakes for P trim?

Honestly?

Because most people don't understand how brakes work and think "sports cars have big brakes, big brakes always better!"

Which is not, at all, true.

They also do offer some benefit on a race track where you're braking from 100+ mph over and over again without cooling the brakes off.... but most owners will never do that, so mainly it's the first reason.

If it’s only to minimize overheating (since it’s the tires that make the difference), would putting larger wheels on a stealth equal the stopping distance of a P (ignoring the increased curb weight)?

On the same note, would choosing 19” rims improve stopping distance on a stealth?

Again- wheel/tire size isn't the issue. Tire traction is.

The stock 18s on the P3D-, with PS4s tires, produce virtually identical stopping distances to the P3D+ with the PS4s tires on 20" rims.

Both of which produce much shorter distances than the exact same wheels with less sticky tires on em.

 

[Uncle Paul]

A giant benefit of large and better brakes is not so much the maximum breaking at lockup, but the ability to feel and modulate your braking force to optimize braking without locking up the brakes. It is that feel that allows precise control of your braking going into, and often through a corner (trail braking).

The better and larger components offer more consistant and repeatable braking events. Gets you into a rhythm, not just a series of locking up your brakes.

The brakes not only stop the car, but are also critical in transfering weight from the rear to the front in corners. This allows more weight on the front tires and improves turn in. This weight is again transfered to the rear tires to enhance traction, as you exit the corner (RWD)

Larger brakes often need larger wheels. That is mostly the reason for larger wheels on race cars. That trend has been picked up by posers on the street.

Testing of stopping distances does not take this feel and control into consideration. They simply STOMP on the brakes and let ABS bring the car to a stop.

Purpose of anti-lock brakes is to maintain steering control under maximum braking. Without ABS your car will loose steering control if your front brakes lock up. This will cause you to just plow ahead. With pulsing ABS you can still steer around things when panic braking.