Elon, Where is the FSD features you promised?

[stopcrazypp]

One could split hairs on deposit and nonrefundable status, I think one could argue otherwise based off of having the car and hardware. That wasn't the main point of the rhetorical question.

Regardless, I have a hunch that by the end of this calendar year this thread will become meaningless and that significant features will be appearing in the near future.

I think at this point Elon is pretty busy with the Model 3 unveiling. From the other firmware thread, I'm guessing even if they have some EAP or FSD firmware up their sleeve they would time it well with the Model 3 release (maximize the PR value).

 

[whitex]

One could split hairs on deposit and nonrefundable status, I think one could argue otherwise based off of having the car and hardware. That wasn't the main point of the rhetorical question.

What was the point of that question then? That is the big difference, not a hair-splitting one, you can take your deposit back 100%, which is what some people are asking for - their money back. As for the argument for hardware, also doesn't fly as it's required for base functionality like automatic headlights or wipers (still not ready, I'm sure someone will argue it's pending government approval), therefore it's part of the base price. This is supported by the fact that people have the hardware and didn't pay for FSD (or even EAP).

 

[aWalkingShadow]

I think of you more as an overly emo Mobileye employee (former or current, dunno) who has a personal agenda here driven by negative feelings towards Musk and your very public bitter breakup with Tesla. You're focused on only one feature area & only post when you have something negative to say.

This is an interesting theory, and it fits on many levels; it seems as if the negative feelings are driven by a sense of betrayal. However, one thing that wouldn't make sense under your narrative is the fact that bladerskb was still making pro-Tesla posts in November, praising Tesla's AP2, which doesn't use Mobileye hardware and this is long after Tesla and Mobileye split.

 

[bonnie]

This is an interesting theory, and it fits on many levels; it seems as if the negative feelings are driven by a sense of betrayal. However, one thing that wouldn't make sense under your narrative is the fact that bladerskb was still making pro-Tesla posts in November, praising Tesla's AP2, which doesn't use Mobileye hardware and this is long after Tesla and Mobileye split.

Yeah, I should have just stuck with the 'overly emo'.

 

[lunitiks]

One has to be following pretty obsessively to even catch that tweet. I kind of felt the OP cherry picked it because it was so easy to make fun of.

... or you could be an Electrek reader.

The Drive. Or perhaps you're reading Techrepublic, Futurism.

Forbes, maybe?

@andrewket, Jan 24, 2017:

In six months all the die-hard Tesla supporters will be coming up with alternative definitions for "definitely."

FSD Features to be Available in 3 to 6 months

 

[gowthamn]

It is a well known fact that Elon hypes and lies a lot. One should not trust him.

 

[luvnMyTS]

I don't have a problem with Tesla selling FSD before it's ready. As other's have said, just like taking a deposit for a Model 3. BUT, they ABSOLUTELY should offer refunds, at a minimum, to those that sell their car before it ever got activated. Customers are being VERY good to Tesla and Tesla should show the same love in return. Anyone who pays for FSD now, or already has, is saying "here Elon, take my $3,000, interest free and do what you want with it, if you don't deliver, oh well, happy to donate my money to one of the richest men in the world". If someone is going to sell their car or trade it in, they absolutely should be given a refund if the paid for something that was NEVER DELIVERED. That would be like Tesla taking your $100,000 for a Model S, then saying, OK, we'll get it to you as soon as we can, then never delivering the car to you! Anyone who argues that Tesla shouldn't have to give a refund for FSD is saying that they wouldn't have to refund your money if they chose not to deliver your car.

 

[oktane]

Awww, @oktane ... a disagree? I was grouping you in the group that had negative stuff to say, but had reason. We all know you love your car. You don't fool us.

It's ok I still like/respect you. I'd say love but I don't need any jealous girlfriends.

I do love my car despite her flaws. It's not Tessie's fault who her parents are and how they lied to me.

When I dislike a post it is usually just because I am irritated at what I am reading, rather than a personal attack.

 

[calisnow]

I will as soon as there is another comparable EV. Can't wait to bail from Tesla ecosystem after all of their nonsense. I freely admit there is no other EV available that I could tolerate to drive. That will change in 1-2 years I assume. Competition is good for me, but bad for Tesla.

So... the car you like most in the entire world for yourself is the same one you do nothing but hate on every single day publicly. You must have amazing interpersonal relationships.

 

[calisnow]

I don't have a problem with Tesla selling FSD before it's ready. As other's have said, just like taking a deposit for a Model 3. BUT, they ABSOLUTELY should offer refunds, at a minimum, to those that sell their car before it ever got activated. Customers are being VERY good to Tesla and Tesla should show the same love in return. Anyone who pays for FSD now, or already has, is saying "here Elon, take my $3,000, interest free and do what you want with it, if you don't deliver, oh well, happy to donate my money to one of the richest men in the world". If someone is going to sell their car or trade it in, they absolutely should be given a refund if the paid for something that was NEVER DELIVERED. That would be like Tesla taking your $100,000 for a Model S, then saying, OK, we'll get it to you as soon as we can, then never delivering the car to you! Anyone who argues that Tesla shouldn't have to give a refund for FSD is saying that they wouldn't have to refund your money if they chose not to deliver your car.

Wrong. I'm making a bet that FSD will cost more later.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's ok I still like/respect you. I'd say love but I don't need any jealous girlfriends.

I do love my car despite her flaws. It's not Tessie's fault who her parents are and how they lied to me.

When I dislike a post it is usually just because I am irritated at what I am reading, rather than a personal attack.

I often use Disagree as a way of noting what I consider unfactual information in the post. I wish there was a "Disinformation" (or maybe some nicer word to the same effect) button or some such to note that difference. I recently Disagreed with @vandacca and that actually stung a lot, I didn't want to necessarily send that message to him (and the disinformation was accidental), but there is really no other way of flagging a message for disinformation...

I do not think the statement that @Bladerskb is motivated by any Mobileye history (or necessarily even has one) is factual. It is just not supported by his Reddit history. Thus IMO even any such speculation - let alone a flat out claim - comes out as an ad hominem to dismiss his views. It reminds me how Eds was discredited back in the day and turned out to be right on the additional Model X delays and door technology change. He was discredited for being an employee of the dismissed seat maker. Whether or not that was true, Eds was right. We know that now.

The thing is, sometimes the people who annoy us or disparage things we like, are still right and the truth is on their side. I know it sucks, but in this case "shooting" them is shooting at the messenger. The real culprit is whomever is responsible for that truth they tell us. In this case, Elon Musk tweeted about the now completely missed FSD feature timeline of 3-6 months voluntarily. Be annoyed at him, not at @Bladerskb for pointing it out, is my opinion.

IMO @Bladerskb is more like me. Just look at my first post on TMC in 2014. I was gushing, excited, basically fanboy-posting about Tesla. This was @Bladerskb as well, a year later about AP2. He was really excited about the potential of AP2 back in the day.

Since then we have learned a thing or two of Tesla.

As @oktane put it, it is certainly also perfectly possible to like a Tesla car, while disliking the operation and culture of its maker.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Wrong. I'm making a bet that FSD will cost more later.

Sure, but until it is released, even with a refund it would still have a similar betting effect. If you take the refund, you risk having to re-activate it later at a higher cost - whatever the re-activation cost is at the time.

And it would be a lot more morally supportable as a policy.

Mind you, personally I don't need or want a refund for FSD. Whatever will be, will be, is my take on it. But I can see why someone would and I can definitely see why it would be reasonable for Tesla to honor such requests.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So... the car you like most in the entire world for yourself is the same one you do nothing but hate on every single day publicly. You must have amazing interpersonal relationships.

That's really the thing some are having a hard time grasping, right?

What I would welcome as a thought exercise is thinking very hard as to why that is: Why there are more and more disillusioned Tesla owners on TMC. Is it because we have "amazing interpersonal relationships" - aka we're just unreasonable/impossible people - or is it because where there is smoke, there is fire? Could Tesla the company - and Elon the CEO in this thread - be actually the one to blame for all these misses, missteps and misleading communications?

The facts of this matter are very simple, to me. Tesla is the only company in the world making a premium large-battery electric car (outside of Rimac, which is volume and cost prohibitive for many). They are also the only car company in the world who have a OTA software updateable platform. For others the Supercharger network is the third big differentiator, though not so important for me. If you want and like a large-battery BEV or those other two features, Tesla is the only product you want at this time. Some things will change starting in 2018, but until then, this is it.

For me, Tesla will always get kudos and its hallowed place in history for this achievement. If GM killed the electric car, Tesla gave birth to it the second time singlehandedly. For this fact I will always respect Tesla. And I do think they will succeed with Model 3 and drag on the rest of the industry into the new BEV era.

That said, there has been so much potentially ethically questionable activity surrounding Tesla starting with the P85D HP debacle and continuing throughout the past three years, that I find it very hard to like the Tesla company of today. There are too many potential, ethically concerning things that worry me there. And I can definitely see where people like @Bladerskb or @oktane are coming from with their views, even though I am not as strict with my conclusions as they are.

The cars are great products. That does not automatically translate into the company being the same.

 

[luvnMyTS]

Wrong. I'm making a bet that FSD will cost more later.

Wrong about what? Yes, that's fine if Tesla charges more for it later. That's the incentive of paying for it up front. My point however is: What if you paid for it up front, then sell your car and it was never delivered? You should then be entitled to a refund since the product you paid for was never delivered. That is at a minimum. If they offered refunds, they'd probably get a lot more people willing to fork out the cash up front, lining their pockets even more. And if the refund was offered to anyone at anytime before it's activated, even those keeping their car, then yes, they run the risk of paying a higher price later if they choose to refund now and pay later. So what! That should be the owner's choice if TESLA HAS NOT DELIVERED. Tesla benefits from having that money in their account, must like the 400,000 $1,000 Model 3 deposits in their account and working for them. Even if people cancel their reservation, Tesla still make use of your money while you gave it to them and still comes out a head. It's becoming more like the lottery. They take a bunch of money in, pay it out over 26 years and effectively have the original money spent in their accounts after that money has done all the work to make the 26 yearly payouts. Or, they offer you a reduced payout if you take it in cash up front. You win a $100,000,000 jackpot, want cash payout, you get closer to $60,000,000. Who keeps the $40,000,000 left over? It's being put to work to make back the $60,000,000 that was paid out. Tesla is doing the same. Working with other people's money.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Overselling FSD doesn't really help Tesla much, the money collected from it carries forward as deferred revenue until they activate it.

Of course it helps them - the deferral is just accounting. They can still use the money. But most importantly, FSD can help sell more cars as people look at the market and Tesla is the only one "selling" FSD cars (coming in "3-6 months")...

This is why I think the FSD story was invented. And why so many of us hopped on board. Based on the initial communications and the reasonably large size of the sensor suite, and Tesla's success with AP1 (which really was a great achievement in its time), a lot of people really thought they were leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else and bought Teslas accordingly.

Sure we knew FSD regulation was years away, but in the meanwhile we really did think Tesla would have the most amazing driver's aid working much sooner than anyone else. Even EAP alone sounded amazing from its initial introduction. Now actually EAP is still nowhere to be seen and the competition like GM, Volvo and Audi is lining up their next-gen Level 2/Level 3 achievements.

Let us not forget, in addition to the EAP/FSD buying crowd, there was also a third group of people: those who had AP1 orders in the pipeline when the AP2 switch was made. Tesla asked and encouraged extra payments from those people to enable EAP (instead of a software limited AP1-like AP2)... But nobody was told here we would be soon a year later and that EAP is not even at AP1 parity...

So, soon a year of haphazard AP2 progress later (still not at AP1 parity), that EAP/FSD story is getting a bit stale. Turns out, Tesla was not that far ahead, we were just made to believe they were.

 

[J1mbo]

So, in summary, the reason behind the shade and vitriol against Tesla's FSD product is down to the premature marketing of bleeding-edge technology before it was ready, and the use of aspirational language (with a light dusting of legal wriggle-room) when doing so.

And the takeaway for Tesla is: next time, be specific about the current state of the technology when marketing it, because whilst some of us get it - buying into the aspiration, and enjoying being part of the journey while it comes together; others prefer to wait until it is fully baked.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So, in summary, the reason behind the shade and vitriol against Tesla's FSD product is down to the premature marketing of bleeding-edge technology before it was ready, and the use of aspirational language (with a light dusting of legal wriggle-room) when doing so.

And the takeaway for Tesla is: next time, be specific about the current state of the technology when marketing it, because whilst some of us get it - buying into the aspiration, and enjoying being part of the journey while it comes together; others prefer to wait until it is fully baked.

I think the main reason, in this case, is Elon's statement of "6 months definitely". Had that not happened, the FSD language most people I believe have much less problem with than the EAP announcement. It was the EAP announcement that turned out to be really misleading (short of Tesla failing to deliver FSD at all, of course).

The takeaway for Tesla is really simple, IMO. Stop over-promising and under-delivering. If it means promising nothing about future events and selling just what you can deliver today, that would be fine.

The aspirational stuff can be painted in Master Plan like documents. It should not be attached to products being sold today, unless those aspirations can be met for sure.

I mean, what if Tesla had simply sold the AP2 as AP1-like first: "The new suite will start off with AP1 type of capability completed in the next 6-12 months, with first beta version appearing around December 2016. Click here to select this Autopilot feature for your car. In the future, the new suite will allow even more advanced driver's aid and self-driving, to be announced and sold later as software updates."

A lot less people would have been misled by such a statement. They could still have painted the aspirations elsewhere, while being very clear about what is now being sold.

 

[J1mbo]

I mean, what if Tesla had simply sold the AP2 as AP1-like first: "The new suite will start off with AP1 type of capability completed in the next 6-12 months, with first beta version appearing around December 2016. Click here to select this Autopilot feature for your car. In the future, the new suite will allow even more advanced driver's aid and self-driving, to be announced and sold later as software updates."

Which is exactly what I was getting at:

And the takeaway for Tesla is: next time, be specific about the current state of the technology when marketing it

 

[Reciprocity]

Sure, but until it is released, even with a refund it would still have a similar betting effect. If you take the refund, you risk having to re-activate it later at a higher cost - whatever the re-activation cost is at the time.

And it would be a lot more morally supportable as a policy.

Mind you, personally I don't need or want a refund for FSD. Whatever will be, will be, is my take on it. But I can see why someone would and I can definitely see why it would be reasonable for Tesla to honor such requests.

Cost of tech doesnt go up, it only goes down. Computing power gets cheaper and the software costs will be spread out over more and more production vehicles so it will more then likely be cheaper in the future. Competition also will drive down prices for consumers.

 

[zambono]

Th

Tomorrow officially makes it 6 months. We see no FSD features nor even EAP features, we only see the struggle to match AP1 parity. If FSD or even EAP were on the horizon and coming in the next update, you would see alot of hype coming from Elon like he always has. But we have crickets.

What in the world is going on at Tesla HQ?

I think i lucked out by canceling my Model 3 preorder and didn't exchange preorders with someone high on the list for 2k like i planned in October after the AP2 announcement.

Definitely = precise, exact, certain, sure, conclusive, firm, concrete, unmistakable, absolutely, without doubt, without question

There's still no EAP features. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
This is after 10 months.10 months ppl!

For the love of all that is good, stop over-promising and under-delivering... the constant disappointments are amazing.

i mean am i the only one who feel this way? like just deliver and stop the constant hype?

Those 10 months really hurt for those who are leasing I suppose.