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1000 mile range with aluminum, air and water reacrion

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by pgwoosley, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. pgwoosley

    pgwoosley Member

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  2. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Thanks for posting. We always read about new battery chemistries and that is usually as far as it gets. This however shows an actual vehicle using them. I guess the operative word in your description is "alleges". Time will tell.
     
  3. s2kysk

    s2kysk New Member

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    Can I interest in some investments? Or, free energy? :rolleyes:
     
  4. agentsmith1612

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    I can not belive that, because I don't understand the chemistry behind that and I am a chemist.

    I understand that there are two batterys an Li-Ion and an Al one.

    The Li-Ion is for normal use and rechargable.
    The aluminium reacts with oxygen and electricty is generated by this reaction between aluminium and oxygen ? That can happen, but the Al-battery there will not be rechargeable without replacing these aluminium plates.
    My question is what is with the reacted aluminium, is it on the plate as aluminumoxid or hydroxyd or get it disolved in the water ?
    Why are they filling up the water.
    I don't understand yet.

    Edit: This system is not new, look here: Aluminium–air battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now I understand.
     
  5. pgwoosley

    pgwoosley Member

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    Here is a link to the company mentioned in the video and the Wikipedia article:
    http://www.phinergy.com/

    The video did talk about the aluminum/aluminium plates needing to be replaced.
     
  6. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    The video mentions 25 kg of aluminium. Each contains around 8 kWh of energy, so with 25 kg that works out to about 200 kWh.

    25 kg of aluminium costs around 50$ (in bulk), which works out to around $0.25/kWh. I doubt that the discharge efficiency is as high as in a li-ion battery, and I really doubt the aluminium requires no processing at all, so probably $0.5/kWh (available to the motor) is more likely.

    This means that if you are going to use the aluminium-air battery very much, the running costs will be significant. I think li-ion coupled with superchargers will prevail before aluminium-air batteries become meaningful. This is like Better Place - already obsolete.
     
  7. agentsmith1612

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    Perhaps in the future people will have tonns of unused and used Al plates in their garages. An every week they will replace them. I though a little bit absurd ?
    The best advantage of on Li-Ion EV is that you are not addicted to a company. Everbody can produce electricity themself.
    With H2, Al-plates or what so ever this would not be possible.
     
  8. Zzzz...

    Zzzz... Member

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    #8 Zzzz..., Mar 23, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
    You are not BURNING aluminum in the process. So you will get some money back by selling it to recycle.

    But I totally agree, batteries are the future.

    EDIT: I mean rechargeable ones.
     
  9. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    Alumina costs around $700/ton in bulk, so of those $50 for 25 kg of aluminium, you'll get maybe $17 when you sell the oxidized aluminium. Maybe half that will go to the middlemen, so you as the consumer might get $8 for the aluminium oxide. Assuming the aluminium cost $100/25kg installed and ready in your car, the price per kWh after the recycling payment might be somewhere in the area of $0.45/kWh. Still not very cheap.
     
  10. Benz

    Benz Active Member

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  11. Martini

    Martini Member

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    Its not really a battery as such, as it is recharged by replacing an aluminium plate. It is interesting technology but looks to me like a better replacement for emergency generators than for automotive applications.
     
  12. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    If this worked and you had 2 batteries: a regular( primary ) LiIon battery plus a consumable battery ( secondary ) how would you size the 2 batteries?

    Assume the secondary battery is good for 1000 miles and requires replacing a chunk of aluminum every 1000 miles.
    I would end up wanting to replace it when it had a couple hundred miles left, to maintain the usefulness of being able to jump in my car and go a couple hundred miles without planning. When I know I have a long trip coming up, I would replace it if it had less than the miles I plan to drive on my trip ( plus buffer ).
    I would not want to have to take my car in for a service to swap out the secondary battery more than every 6 months, so I would not want normal driving to put more than 700 miles on it every 6 months.
    Given all that, I think I would want my primary battery to satisfy all of my driving on average days, and most of my driving on slightly above average days - at least 20-24kW in my primary battery ( 50-60 miles worth ).
    Of course, it would mean that my primary battery would have to be a different chemistry than the Model S because I would want something that can produce more power - I wouldn't want to cut the power of my Model S performance by a factor of 4.
    I suspect that the minimum primary battery size may be more constrained by power than range.

    That would be pretty cool. It seems quite possible that there will be battery battery hybrids in the future.
     
  13. Shock

    Shock Member

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    When I saw the video I was thinking since you have to refill the water - "where does the water go"? And since the plates dissolve (according to the inventor) where does the dissolved aluminum go?

    Toxic fumes for the water evaporation leaving a toxic soup of the aluminum?

    Not being a naysayer, but I'm thinking it's gotta go somewhere...
     

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