Coda Automotive (formerly Miles Automotive Group)

[shark2k]

Received an e-mail today from Coda informing that the car can be reserved. Also says that the new and improved http://www.codaautomotive.com has launched. The site the car is $37,400 after tax savings.

-Shark2k

 

[TEG]

Better URL: http://www.codaautomotive.com/

 

[doug]

The site the car is $37,400 after tax savings.

Yeah, saw that on ABG yesterday morning.
2011 Coda electric sedan priced at $44,900
I think they're toast. Nissan with their Leaf pricing was really a game changer. I don't think these guys have much of a chance. I wish them the best of luck, though.

 

[PaulM]

They could have been successful had they came out earlier this year but against Nissan they have no chance. They may sell a few due to their longer range (hey GM was able to sell the Aztek and it wasn't cheap either) but not many people will take the risk when they have a choice from a major manufacturer.

 

[Cobos]

Looking at the battery I think Siry might have a point. He posted on his blog a few months back that many of the new EVs had very unrealistic range estimates. And that is a lot more important when you start with 100 miles than 230 miles as the Roadster does.
The Coda has a 33,8kWh battery while the LEAF only has 24kWH. Either the Leaf uses a lot less power or someone is being optimistic/pessimistic. I't s a bit like battery times on a laptop, everyone "knows" you realistically get around 50-75% of that time.

Cobos

 

[EVNow]

Looking at the battery I think Siry might have a point. He posted on his blog a few months back that many of the new EVs had very unrealistic range estimates. And that is a lot more important when you start with 100 miles than 230 miles as the Roadster does.
The Coda has a 33,8kWh battery while the LEAF only has 24kWH. Either the Leaf uses a lot less power or someone is being optimistic/pessimistic. I't s a bit like battery times on a laptop, everyone "knows" you realistically get around 50-75% of that time.

I've no idea why Siry said what he said - afterall Nissan uses manganese spinal, not consumer grade cobalt oxide. Besides they have some 15 years experience with Lithium automotive batteries - so they know what they are doing.

In anycase, 24kwh is the usable. The nominal capacity is probably around 30 kwh which gives it a 80% DOD.

 

[Cobos]

EVNow are you sure that the 24kWh is the usable not the total battery. Or let me ask this another way the 53kWh that Tesla says for the Roadster is that the usable or the total capacity.
I never said Nissan doesn't know how to make batteries. What I did say and which is Siry's point is that if YMMV should show that in reality getting 100 miles is impossible it will be bad for EV's. I've heard people use that same argument when comparing Think's and MiEV which supposedly have the same range. What I was trying to say in my post above was that Coda might take a worst case scenario into account when they say range while Nissan might use a better-case scenario. This of course might also account a bit for the price differential.
So unless the slightly larger range is crucial I also think the Coda is not priced right relative to the Leaf. Hence Coda might have a big problem on their hands.

Cobos

 

[eledille]

Hmm. 7.05 km/kWh sounds optimistic to me. My Think was specified to have a range of 80 km with its 11.4 kWh battery - that's 7.02 km/kWh. You can get 80 km out of it, but then you have to drive economically. The Leaf has better aerodynamics, but also a higher top speed. Time will tell.

Cobos, EVNow: manganese spinel li-ion batteries differ from cobalt oxide by being able to utilize the full capacity without degrading. They're lower nominal capacity on paper, but at least partially make up for it in practice.

 

[Iz]

Cobos, I posted something along the same lines as you several months ago. The Nissan, being more popular will attract greater attention. Given the limited range (and hence, lower price point), all eyes will be on it. It will be directed more at the masses than the niche markets early on. However, news of dead batteries, photos of Leafs in tow and families stuck on the road due to drained batteries will not be welcome news for EVs. This is where Coda may have an advantage and Model S will shine, particularly the 300 mile range option.

 

[EVNow]

EVNow are you sure that the 24kWh is the usable not the total battery. Or let me ask this another way the 53kWh that Tesla says for the Roadster is that the usable or the total capacity.

I can't speak with any authority about Tesla - but with Leaf it is the usable (as in that is what Nissan will use).

I never said Nissan doesn't know how to make batteries. What I did say and which is Siry's point is that if YMMV should show that in reality getting 100 miles is impossible it will be bad for EV's.

Siry & Musk and others have a "NIH" problem. They fail to realize that
- Flat is better for thermal management than cylindrical
- Mn spinal is much better than Cobalt oxide in terms of being able to take thermal abuse as well as having much better internal resistence

BTW, have you seen my chart of the range that Nissan published under various circumstances ? We will easily be able to hit 100 mile range if we don't use AC/Heater.

 

[PaulM]

From your table EVNOW, you show Leaf - V1 and Leaf - V2. Does that indicate that the Leaf which Nissan is starting to deliver in a few months is V1 and you have insider information that the next generation Leaf (V2) will have a different chemistry giving a slightly better energy density and SIGNIFICANTLY increased cycle life?

 

[EVNow]

From your table EVNOW, you show Leaf - V1 and Leaf - V2. Does that indicate that the Leaf which Nissan is starting to deliver in a few months is V1 and you have insider information that the next generation Leaf (V2) will have a different chemistry giving a slightly better energy density and SIGNIFICANTLY increased cycle life?

Not insider information. Search for NMC and Nissan.

 

[TEG]

Fun CODA Tweets:

Leaving CODA's lights on for two hours will reduce your range by approximately 14 feet.

If CODA's battery powered a cell phone, you could talk for 8 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 24.6 years.

 

[siry]

@EVNow - The chemistry is irrelevant to the issue of what range to expect given a certain driving speed. The chemistry is relevant to cycle life, charging, and safety factors etc. My point about Nissan applies to all electric vehicles. If you quote the LA4 range people are going to be sorely disappointed when they actually use the vehicle. The issue is how you communicate to people about expectations. Tesla communicates a combined range of 244 - if they followed Nissan's lead they would be quoting 275 miles or something like that. So Tesla is being reasonable, and they published a chart on their blog that showed just how variable the range is with regard to average speed.

And your chart makes no sense. it is simply not possible that the LEAF gets the same range at 7 mph as it does at 50 mph, and higher range at 55 mph.

 

[stopcrazypp]

@EVNow - The chemistry is irrelevant to the issue of what range to expect given a certain driving speed.

And your chart makes no sense. it is simply not possible that the LEAF gets the same range at 7 mph as it does at 50 mph, and higher range at 55 mph.

I think he might be confused about which article Cobos was talking about and was thinking about the battery cooling article.

The chart he is posting is made from range figures from Nissan. Nissan had an event where they posted the range of the Leaf under different conditions. It is possible to get drastically lower range at low speed when you have the air conditioning on (since you will have it on for hours while not moving very far in that time).

 

[TEG]

How the 2011 Coda sedan hopes to compete with the Nissan Leaf

 

[Jaff]

Based on that consumer study mentioned in the Paris Auto Show thread (10% of consumers would buy an EV), for the first few years, I'm not sure the Coda will have to compete with the Leaf...I think demand for these entry level EVs will far outstrip supply for the first few years...although many folks might want a Leaf or Volt, they might have to "settle" for a MiEV or a Coda when the Leaf & Volt have sold out...

 

[EVNow]

@EVNow - The chemistry is irrelevant to the issue of what range to expect given a certain driving speed. The chemistry is relevant to cycle life, charging, and safety factors etc.

True. I was talking about the need for active thermal management, like stopcrazypp guessed, which would depend on chemistry and shape.

My point about Nissan applies to all electric vehicles. If you quote the LA4 range people are going to be sorely disappointed when they actually use the vehicle. The issue is how you communicate to people about expectations. Tesla communicates a combined range of 244 - if they followed Nissan's lead they would be quoting 275 miles or something like that. So Tesla is being reasonable, and they published a chart on their blog that showed just how variable the range is with regard to average speed.

Nissan has published various ranges under various circumstances.

And your chart makes no sense. it is simply not possible that the LEAF gets the same range at 7 mph as it does at 50 mph, and higher range at 55 mph.

And this statement further confirms my suspicion that you are not really following the Leaf news. The news of varied ranges that Nissan gave presentations on to hundreds of journalists is all over the web (and print). My chart is based on that.

BTW, the reason the range goes down a lot in heavy stop & go crawl is the AC/Heater being on for over 7 hours.

Nissan has posted a lot of information about range on their website (which everyone uses to order). They even sent out a survey talking about this. So, yes, Nissan seems to understands that they need to tell potential buyers about variable range. And I do agree that they need to publish highway cycle range, instead of just LA04.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=19033#p19033

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index

My guess is that Nissan is lowballing their range a bit. LA04 is probably over 100 miles (if you see their wording, they say *more* than 100 miles). I hope the new EPA stickers clearly put that city/highway range figures prominents instead of meaningless mpge.

Also, the 24kwh is the "usable" capacity. We estimate the nominal capacity to be about 30kwh, couple of folk who talked to insiders have confirmed this.

 

[doug]

http://www.labusinessjournal.com/news/2010/oct/04/driving-force/

 

[dpeilow]

Enterprise To Add 100 2011 Coda Sedans To Its Electric Car Fleet