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Elon and Ukraine

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Very constructive. While I see the comment they make and you make I do not see the value of it for discussion. So based on your judgement no matter what they are saying, what are in your mind the 3 most likely outcomes in the case of Ukraine? If one does not prepare for the scenarios and cannot even discuss then, how can one take action now to reduce the impact, is this something for our ever so bright policiticans to discuss and decide for us instead as in Russia?

Edit: To note, there is a very big difference with the discussion of likely outcomes, to discussing overarching suggestions on how to peace could/should be reached in this case.

David Sacks Tweet is very ignorant of the realities of this war. It looks like he hasn't updated his assumptions about the quality of the two forces since February 24.

The Russian mobilization is going like everything else Russia has tried in this war, it's an utter shambles which will put a bunch of untrained, unmotivated idiots on the front line who will just get killed. They are nothing more than a speed bump to the Ukrainian army.

The Ukrainian army has shown it has taken the NATO training it got since 2014 to heart. They fully mobilized at the start of the war and they now have a large force of well trained personnel who have high morale and are extremely well motivated to fight. Ukraine's only problem is a shortage of heavy equipment.

The Ukrainians have plentiful small arms equipment. Every frontline trooper has body armor and a modern helmet as well as plenty of secondary arms like rocket launchers and grenades. A recent video by a Wagner group soldier showed how good Ukrainian body armor was. He shot a breast plate with his AK and it didn't even dent the backside of it.

Russia has demonstrated that their army was a paper tiger. On paper it was supposedly the 2nd best in the world, but in reality it's a third world shambles incapable of any complex operations. The vaunted huge equipment reserves the Russians had turned out to be a lot of junk either picked over by thieving servicemen looking to make a buck on the black market, or rusted out from decades of sitting through Russian winters.

Called up servicemen are being given AKs that are more rust than gun, or ancient guns from past wars. Some mobilized men have been seen with WW 1 era rifles that were being phased out when the Germans invaded in 1941. Others have been given WW II surplus weapons and equipment.

The conscripts are surrendering in large numbers. Many said the only weapons they had was a rifle. No grenades, rocket launchers, or anything else.

There is some possibility that Russia will use a nuclear weapon, but it's unlikely NATO would immediately respond with a nuclear strike of their own. Experts who have been planners in the Pentagon (who are now retired) have all said the likely NATO response will be a conventional air war to wipe Russian war power in the region off the map and possibly take out Russian war assets in other parts of the world.

The idea that an outside power like the US would basically negotiate an end in Ukraine's place is old thinking. I recommend anyone with the time watch this lecture series
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_

It's a class being taught at Yale this semester on Ukrainian history. Professor Timothy Snyder also talks a lot about the Psychology and how language shapes thinking. In Slavic languages there is a word "na" that we translate as "the". It refers to a region with some cultural identity but no political existence. Like in the US people using that terminology might say "na Appalachia". Appalachia is a cultural entity, but it does not have defined borders or any kind of government representing the region. The region has governments, but none represent the place called Appalachia.

The Russians always refer to Ukraine as "na Ukraine" or "the Ukraine" in English. It's recognizing that Ukraine has a cultural identity, but denying it any legitimacy as a political entity. The idea that the US would negotiate an end to this war without Ukraine is furthering this thinking. It's Russian fed thought processes.

I think the most likely outcome from this war is Russia is going to devolve into internal chaos which will force them to withdraw the burnt out husk of their army. Economists who have been watching the Russian economy under sanctions are saying that the wheels are beginning to wobble. Some key areas of the Russian economy are showing large cracks.

One of these areas is because of the lack of western equipment. Russia is 100% dependent on western parts and know how to do many things. One area that has been discussed is in the parts they need to make their more sophisticated weapons. The supply for those have dried up so they can't make smart missiles, aircraft, anti-aircraft defense systems, or tanks.

But another are which is beginning to have an impact is in the lowly cassette bearing. These are only made by 5 companies, one Swedish and 4 American. They are used in every Russian railroad wheel on every locomotive and every rail car. They require specialized metallurgy that neither Russia nor China possess. Russia has been parking their rail cars due to bearing failures and they have no ability to replace them. This thread goes into detail about it
Thread by @TrentTelenko on Thread Reader App

Russia is the most rail dependent country on Earth. If the trains stop moving, their economy grinds to a halt very quickly.

Modern Russia has a tendency to get revolutionary when they lose a conflict. In 1906 when the Japanese sank almost the entire navy and handed Russia a serious defeat, there was a major uprising that the Czar was only able to put down because the army was mostly intact. When WW I went bad, they had a civil war that led to the communists coming to power. When they had to pull out of Afghanistan, the USSR fell apart shortly after.

This war is leading to a military defeat on the scale of their 1917 loss. The army is in shambles now. They are depending more and more on tanks and other equipment built in the 1950s and 1960s. There are relative antiques being encountered on the battlefields of Ukraine. And Russia is running out of trained people to operate this equipment. This summer they stripped all their training personnel and sent them to Ukraine, which gave their army a brief sugar high until those people were killed, but now they have nobody to train new troops, so they are basically handing conscripts rifles and sending them to the front untrained.

That is what's called a Lanchester Square Collapse.
Thread by @TrentTelenko on Thread Reader App

Ukraine is moving slowly on offense right now because it is fall mud season. Once the ground freezes the poorly equipped Russians will be freezing to death and the Ukrainians who know what they are doing in winter conditions will be free to move about in the snow. I expect the Ukrainians will take back a lot of their territory by spring as long as the west keeps sending them what they need.

The only failure condition for Ukraine hinges on the west losing the will to keep them in the fight. Russia faces several losing scenarios including straight up battlefield defeat, a coup in Moscow, uprisings in the provinces, and an oligarch revolt. I read a few days ago that most of the oligarchs in Russia are putting together their own private armies and only a few of them are sending them to Ukraine. Prigozhin has the most famous army, the Wagner Group, but he's no longer alone in this.

We could see Russia devolve into a Game of Thrones scenario with warlords fighting one another for who controls the Kremlin.



Russian conscription leading to a stalemate is a scenario out of a different universe. Forcing a settlement from the outside is also outdated thinking.
 
This news blew 99% of the Elon hate in this thread out of the water: Musk clueless for suggesting a compromise? He's under the influence of the right? Think again...


What does this have to do with Musk?

The Congressional liberals are not telling Ukraine what it should do. Just saying that the U.S. should negotiate with Russia. I agree: The U.S. should negotiate with Russia, promising an end to sanctions as soon as Russia pulls out of Ukraine and pays reparations for its illegal and genocidal invasion.

Musk was trying to tell Ukraine what it should do, particularly that it should give some of its land to Russia in return for peace. This would be folly because if Russia gains anything it would just try again later. The Congressional liberals are not doing this.

For what it's worth, my disgust with Musk was when he threatened to cut off Starlink services to Ukraine if the U.S. government didn't pay him a grossly inflated price for those services. And when Musk withdrew that threat and promised to continue those services (for which SpaceX IS being paid!) my opinion of him returned to what it was previously: An unstable nut job.
 
For what it's worth, my disgust with Musk was when he threatened to cut off Starlink services to Ukraine if the U.S. government didn't pay him a grossly inflated price for those services. And when Musk withdrew that threat and promised to continue those services (for which SpaceX IS being paid!) my opinion of him returned to what it was previously: An unstable nut job.
Did he?
They are?

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SmartSelect_20221025_093103_Firefox.jpg

SmartSelect_20221025_093251_Firefox.jpg

 
This news blew 99% of the Elon hate in this thread out of the water: Musk clueless for suggesting a compromise? He's under the influence of the right? Think again...

You keep posting this as if it's some sort of proof that Musk wasn't an idiot with his messaging, it's not. He wiped out much of the good will he created with his support of Ukraine and he appeared clueless thinking Ukraine would agree and that Putin can be trusted.
 
Elon's messaging caused many to think he was threatening to cut off Starlink service. If that was not his intention then at best it was Elon proving once again he's terrible at communicating his ideas on social media.
Humm, sounds like a 'many' issue...
Did he ever say that he was going to cut it off on social media, or was it said by others based on the leaked correspondence?

Regardless, with hindsight (and direct quotes from the involved parties) we can see he was not going to cut off service.
[This probably belongs in the other thread, not that I have anything further to add]
 
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Did he ever say that he was going to cut it off on social media, or was it said by others based on the leaked correspondence?
"Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andrij Melnyk, responded earlier this month to Musk’s claimed peace plan for Russia’s Ukraine war by saying: “F*** off is my very diplomatic reply to you @elonmusk.”"

"“We’re just following his recommendation,” Musk said"

Let's not pretend the implication isn't obvious: "We're going to take our toys and go home".
Regardless, with hindsight (and direct quotes from the involved parties) we can see he was not going to cut off service.
Which is what he should have said first before complaining about the costs on Twitter, which frankly was a terrible look for the richest person on the planet who's spending billions to buy a social media site. Also coupled with his previous messaging about giving up Crimea and trying to make a deal with Putin it was a compounding error. Again, terrible optics caused by poor communication skills, unforced errors.
 
"Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andrij Melnyk, responded earlier this month to Musk’s claimed peace plan for Russia’s Ukraine war by saying: “F*** off is my very diplomatic reply to you @elonmusk.”"

"“We’re just following his recommendation,” Musk said"

Let's not pretend the implication isn't obvious: "We're going to take our toys and go home".

Which is what he should have said first before complaining about the costs on Twitter, which frankly was a terrible look for the richest person on the planet who's spending billions to buy a social media site. Also coupled with his previous messaging about giving up Crimea and trying to make a deal with Putin it was a compounding error. Again, terrible optics caused by poor communication skills, unforced errors.
Which was in reply to:
"
Elon Musk’s Starlink says it can no longer afford to give Ukraine free service and asks the Pentagon to pay for it. Starlink had been a game changer in the war. This comes days after Ukrainian Ambassador
@MelnykAndrij
told Musk to “f*** off.”
"
Which is highly different from "Elon Musk is turning off Starlink serivce to Ukraine "

Weren't all his cost Tweets after the leak?

Point being, those who needed to know knew he wasn't going to cut off Starlink. And the peanut gallery should be aware of that.
 
Elon's messaging caused many to think he was threatening to cut off Starlink service. If that was not his intention then at best it was Elon proving once again he's terrible at communicating his ideas on social media.
Sorry, slightly off-topic half-rant, but I think it's worth unpacking (and the last part was kind of fun to write). I also interpreted Musk's original comment as a threat because that's how it was instantly framed by others and those that brought the tweet to my attention, but in hindsight I doubt it actually was.

There's 2 things at play that I observe and are probably accurate (I'm still making assumptions based on indirect cognitive profiling):

One is that when Musk Tweets (or communicates in general) he generally tries to be truthful, but his truth is encapsulated in a very limited context; in other words, he is making statements with very specific presuppositions in a limited context and doesn't naturally take into consideration that the vast majority of people need clear context clues when he communicates. I've seen a few longer-form interviews where the interviewee actually asks clarifying questions, he's not as terrible at clearing up misunderstandings (one on one). There's a Joe Rogan clip someone posted in this forum a while back (maybe different thread) where he said (roughly) that in person, Elon was an awesome guy to talk to because if you ask him lots of questions he has patience to stay with you until you understand (or at least get the gist of) what Elon's saying - and Rogan, at least, viewed him as kind and generous in terms of sharing his knowledge with anyone. (Note: all of us have significant weaknesses that are essentially opportunity costs of also all being really good at something, from a cognitive function perspective - don't have time to get into cognitive theory, here).

Second issue:
*Twitter users constantly make massive assumptions and sometimes blatantly (intentionally or not) misread even clear statements, then spew out reactions - and those replies limit others' understanding of meaning and intention creating an echo chamber/bolstering misunderstanding. But sober thought should get us to ask questions of our interpretations first when we're getting triggered. Every personality type has to work on trigger management... Some have an easier time than others.

The Twitter culture can be a broken mess of reactionary vitriol and a propaganda hellhole. There are tiny pockets of open sharing, but you have to wade through the slimey morass of ignorant or calculated inflammatory statements that attempt to persuade the reader to oversimplify or bandwagon. The average person finds it very difficult to resist getting sucked into mob mentality (and it's why many people never want to go on Twitter in the first place - they don't like how it alters their thoughts).
 

Pretty much, yes.
They are?

Yes.

Which was in reply to:
"
Elon Musk’s Starlink says it can no longer afford to give Ukraine free service and asks the Pentagon to pay for it.

Elon Musk is a nut job who shoots off his mouth (figuratively speaking) on Twitter about things outside his area of capacity. He has accomplished great things, and he has embarked on some crazy schemes. Those two probably go hand-in-hand. His cockamamie idea of colonizing Mars probably comes from the same place as his inspiration to bring Tesla where it is and to found SpaceX.

When he said that Starlink can no longer afford to give Ukraine free service*, the obvious and incontrovertible conclusion is that he was going to stop giving that free* service.

* Musk was not giving Ukraine free service. He was giving them discounted service, and in many cases "giving" top-tier service to users who were only actually using basic-level service.

Again, I applaud him for supporting Ukraine. I criticize him for telling Ukraine that it should give Crimea to the rat-bastard Putin, and thinking that Putin would be satisfied with it.
 
... many people never want to go on Twitter in the first place - they don't like how it alters their thoughts).

I don't use twitter because I don't care to wade through the pile of horse hooey, and because, frankly, I find the formatting incomprehensible. And because the length limit requires that every thought be simplified, making it impossible to express a nuanced idea. Thus it inevitably foments and perpetuates narrow-minded hate-filled bigotry. The best thing Elon could do right now would be to buy it and shut it down.
 
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Hindsight is 20-20. We criticized Musk based on what he was saying publicly. You cannot expect us to act on information that he did not give us.
Ok, that makes sense in historic context.
Except, when did he give us the information that he was going to cancel Ukraine’s service?

And he has given information that there is a lot of unpaid service being provided.

" (for which SpaceX IS being paid!) "
 
I don't use twitter because I don't care to wade through the pile of horse hooey, and because, frankly, I find the formatting incomprehensible. And because the length limit requires that every thought be simplified, making it impossible to express a nuanced idea. Thus it inevitably foments and perpetuates narrow-minded hate-filled bigotry. The best thing Elon could do right now would be to buy it and shut it down.
Woah...
No Twitter?
Then how did you get any information from Elon?
 
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Woah...
No Twitter?
Then how did you get any information from Elon?
I won't speak for him, but I rarely go on Twitter just to browse and see what's happening. I go because I'm following an interesting link, but that sharer may give me their interpretation of the context already.

If someone says, "Why is Musk tweeting pro-Putin statements" and then shares the link, our brains take on that context by default unless we actively question it. The more we trust the sharer, the harder it is to re-interpret the Tweet. Especially when someone like Musk already struggles to concisely help others understand what he actually means. (I'd be a *terrible* Tweeter - my posts would all be "1/30" threads!) 😜

Thank you @mongo for revealing the history and context of these specific tweets. It helped me see things more holistically. It's why I rarely allow Twitter content to significantly impact my opinions of others... Life's too short for constant Outrage.
 
I won't speak for him, but I rarely go on Twitter just to browse and see what's happening. I go because I'm following an interesting link, but that sharer may give me their interpretation of the context already.

If someone says, "Why is Musk tweeting pro-Putin statements" and then shares the link, our brains take on that context by default unless we actively question it. The more we trust the sharer, the harder it is to re-interpret the Tweet. Especially when someone like Musk already struggles to concisely help others understand what he actually means. (I'd be a *terrible* Tweeter - my posts would all be "1/30" threads!) 😜

Thank you @mongo for revealing the history and context of these specific tweets. It helped me see things more holistically. It's why I rarely allow Twitter content to significantly impact my opinions of others... Life's too short for constant Outrage.
I follow very few on Twitter, but I do a lot of google searches using site:twitter.com/elonmusk (for example) to quickly see context/ thread on a topic.
 
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I have to say that in general I don't find Twitter in current form to be all that bad. I don't know why but I don't see many bots, (I'm not that active and maybe not worth "botting"), and mostly see items in my areas of interest. I also don't see many posts from what I would consider the lunatic fringe. I haven't done any active filtering so I guess the algo is working for me.