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EV's Not Ready For Prime Time

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Motorist must weigh their driving needs and habits with the vehicle they drive. My opinion is for a lot of people an EV would suit them fine. To some extent it's their unfamiliarity with EVs that makes the decision to switch from ICE difficult (then there's cost). In time this will change as more motorist switch to EVs, and ICE motorist become more familiar with EVs from their family, friends, coworkers neighbors, etc. I think this will just take its course. What is required is access to charging stations and smart grid energy storage. For the masses it's the availability or lack of cheap electricity that will encumber EVs, as it's the total cost of ownership that matters. This included reliability and maintenance but that's an issue for another day.
 
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What type of longevity are you looking for? What would be that magic number? Where would you like to see the charging station leap to?

I as well discourage people of purchasing any other type of EV other than a Tesla. No way should we consider anything short of Tesla standards.
Easy...the battery needs to be able to hold 100% charge after 20 years! Charging stations need to be able to recharge your battery from 0-100% in 5 mins. I can still do this with my first 20 year old benz. The tank size hasn't shrunk, and I can refill in any gas station in 5 mins.
 
Your first requirement is easy to achieve by essentially determining what battery range you would like to have in 20 years, accounting for degradation, and then making sure you buy an EV with enough additional range now to meet your 20 year requirement. For example, if you determine that you need 300 miles of range in 20 years, and you expect 20% degradation, then you would buy an EV with 375 miles of range now. It shouldn't matter to you that you are in fact getting extra range for years 0-19, as long as you are able to achieve your required 300 miles in year 20.

Your second requirement is typical gas station paradigm talk. Yes, it is wonderful that you can fill your 20 year old Benz in 5 minutes at a gas station. But that's because you have to take a special trip to do that, and you have to stand out in the elements with the pump in your hand for those 5 minutes. An EV doesn't require either of those. For daily use, I can just plug the car in and then go off and go about my daily routine. No special trip to a gas station; no need to stand there and watch it charge. If I am working or eating or sleeping or whatever, it doesn't matter to me if the car takes 5 minutes or 5 hours to charge. If I add up all the time I've saved by not having to take a trip to a gas station and then stand out at the pump 5 minutes each time, versus the 10 seconds it takes me to plug in my EV every day, I'm already coming out WAY ahead.

On trips charging speed is a bit more important, but I argue that a 5 minute recharge is not required. When on a trip, most people's stops are not literally driving for 5-6 hours, taking 5 minutes to pump gas and then immediately jumping back in the car for another 5-6 hours. There are typically restroom and food stops intermixed, which take longer than 5 minutes. Okay, so a real steel bladder type might still be able to go farther in a 12-hour driving day in an ICE, but I would argue the difference is not that much. And for most people, even at the current capabilities of Tesla, the car is not the limiting factor. On a trip I take every year we drive 800 miles (12.5 hours of active driving) and the car requires just about 60 minutes of charging (typically two 15 minute stops and one 30 minute stop), but we, on the other hand, usually need one to two additional stops for ourselves, and with two meal stops (which take us about 24 minutes each, even in a gas car), we wind up getting "too much" charge in the car.
 
Your first requirement is easy to achieve by essentially determining what battery range you would like to have in 20 years, accounting for degradation, and then making sure you buy an EV with enough additional range now to meet your 20 year requirement. For example, if you determine that you need 300 miles of range in 20 years, and you expect 20% degradation, then you would buy an EV with 375 miles of range now. It shouldn't matter to you that you are in fact getting extra range for years 0-19, as long as you are able to achieve your required 300 miles in year 20.

Your second requirement is typical gas station paradigm talk. Yes, it is wonderful that you can fill your 20 year old Benz in 5 minutes at a gas station. But that's because you have to take a special trip to do that, and you have to stand out in the elements with the pump in your hand for those 5 minutes. An EV doesn't require either of those. For daily use, I can just plug the car in and then go off and go about my daily routine. No special trip to a gas station; no need to stand there and watch it charge. If I am working or eating or sleeping or whatever, it doesn't matter to me if the car takes 5 minutes or 5 hours to charge. If I add up all the time I've saved by not having to take a trip to a gas station and then stand out at the pump 5 minutes each time, versus the 10 seconds it takes me to plug in my EV every day, I'm already coming out WAY ahead.

On trips charging speed is a bit more important, but I argue that a 5 minute recharge is not required. When on a trip, most people's stops are not literally driving for 5-6 hours, taking 5 minutes to pump gas and then immediately jumping back in the car for another 5-6 hours. There are typically restroom and food stops intermixed, which take longer than 5 minutes. Okay, so a real steel bladder type might still be able to go farther in a 12-hour driving day in an ICE, but I would argue the difference is not that much. And for most people, even at the current capabilities of Tesla, the car is not the limiting factor. On a trip I take every year we drive 800 miles (12.5 hours of active driving) and the car requires just about 60 minutes of charging (typically two 15 minute stops and one 30 minute stop), but we, on the other hand, usually need one to two additional stops for ourselves, and with two meal stops (which take us about 24 minutes each, even in a gas car), we wind up getting "too much" charge in the car.
My LR is actually capable of 325mi today. I require it to be exactly the same in 20 years...period! That's what I paid for, that's what I expect. No future accounting nonsense. Sadly that's not going to happen, and I knew this going in, so I keep my awesome ice apocalypse cars. When I first took delivery of my benz via euro delivery...I could do 425miles on a full tank....20 years later...I can still do that. I can still fill my tank in 5 min... You act like standing in freezing cold to fill a tank in 5 min is such a horrific hour long experience...pfff...no big deal to me. I'd take that over hour(s) long charge any day (I'm talking 0-100%)....nearly all ICE drivers would agree with this, and that's over 95% of the cars on the road today. The problem with BEV's is life throws at you lots of unplanned events... Events that require immediate action that the tesla is simply not up to this task. I've been to places where there's not supercharger to save Tesla's life.

All my peers like the tech in this car...so do I (that's why I bought it)...until I talk about the battery management, and by that I mean owner managing it, They all say, "no thanks.!' At this point...this car is a cool novelty.... The battery tech is the EV achilles...that needs a quantum leap, and is not ready for prime time yet.
 
My LR is actually capable of 325mi today. I require it to be exactly the same in 20 years...period! That's what I paid for, that's what I expect.
Apparently not, as you said "Sadly that's not going to happen, and I knew this going in"

Like I said, if you truly require 325 miles in 20 years (whether that's an actual requirement, or just an expectation, is a whole different matter), you should have bought a vehicle with more range to start, or if the future accounting stuff is too difficult, then a car like the e-Tron where the manufacturer (supposedly) hides some of the capacity from you to give you a more consistent lifetime capacity.

Unfortunately for you, that's simply how batteries work. They degrade over time, and you need to account for that. You must really hate smartphone and laptop batteries that degrade much faster. Do you have similar expectations for other things you buy? That they will not degrade at all? And yes, I know you will throw out another comparison to your 20-yeard old Benz, but that's somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. It would be kind of like I bought a new ICE car and was "shocked" to find that the car would not function properly if I didn't go through the process of changing the oil every 5000 miles or so. Well my electric car doesn't have that extra fee involved! My brand new Benz was working fine when I bought it, and I expect (require!) it to continue to operate for 20 years without having to remove and replace fluids in it periodically!

You act like standing in freezing cold to fill a tank in 5 min is such a horrific hour long experience...pfff...no big deal to me.
I never said it was an hour long experience, and while standing in the freezing cold is not pleasant, for me it was more about time and money. While the actual pumping process might take 5 minutes, driving out of my way to go to the gas station every week or two, sometimes waiting in line for a pump to open up, and then navigating back onto the way home adds up...week after week. And compared to what I pay in electricity, the additional time and money I spent on this adds up. Over the course of a year, just counting normal everyday driving, I estimate that I spent about 8 hours doing this. Sure, it's spread out over a year, but it's still a hassle. So when I hear someone complain that they have to add 30 extra minutes (if that) to a trip they take two or three times a year, I just have to wonder...

I'd take that over hour(s) long charge any day (I'm talking 0-100%)....
Why are you talking 0 to 100%? Do you actually drive your EV that way? Is that how you charge your phone? You wait until it's right down to 0% and then charge it all the way to 100% before turning it on again, and sit there and watch it the whole time? If this is how you think an EV is charged, you're simply doing it wrong.

The problem with BEV's is life throws at you lots of unplanned events... Events that require immediate action that the tesla is simply not up to this task. I've been to places where there's not supercharger to save Tesla's life.
I am not saying that in your particular experience that this is not true, although I question whether the perfect storm of having unplanned, emergency (immediate action) and remote (no Superchargers) is reality, or just an imagined scenario. At any rate, yes, unplanned things happen. It's a far stretch to make the statement that Teslas are not up to it, even if the likelihood is especially rare. I suppose if I lived out in the middle of nowhere 5 hours from the nearest hospital (if there even is such a place), then that person might have a case. Otherwise, what's so hard about keeping your car charged to a level capable of reaching the nearest Supercharger in 2021? For a vast majority of the population, this is easily done.

All my peers like the tech in this car...so do I (that's why I bought it)...until I talk about the battery management, and by that I mean owner managing it, They all say, "no thanks.!' At this point...this car is a cool novelty.... The battery tech is the EV achilles...that needs a quantum leap, and is not ready for prime time yet.
Well, I suspect you are over-complicating your description of "owner management" of the battery. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. You set a charge limit to "daily" most of the time, and "trip" when you are on a trip. You plug the car in when it's parked. You use the nav system when routing to a far away destination and let the car suggest charging stops. Sorry if I've missed something, but there is not really anything too difficult about that.
 
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Apparently not, as you said "Sadly that's not going to happen, and I knew this going in"

Like I said, if you truly require 325 miles in 20 years (whether that's an actual requirement, or just an expectation, is a whole different matter), you should have bought a vehicle with more range to start, or if the future accounting stuff is too difficult, then a car like the e-Tron where the manufacturer (supposedly) hides some of the capacity from you to give you a more consistent lifetime capacity.

Unfortunately for you, that's simply how batteries work. They degrade over time, and you need to account for that. You must really hate smartphone and laptop batteries that degrade much faster. Do you have similar expectations for other things you buy? That they will not degrade at all? And yes, I know you will throw out another comparison to your 20-yeard old Benz, but that's somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. It would be kind of like I bought a new ICE car and was "shocked" to find that the car would not function properly if I didn't go through the process of changing the oil every 5000 miles or so. Well my electric car doesn't have that extra fee involved! My brand new Benz was working fine when I bought it, and I expect (require!) it to continue to operate for 20 years without having to remove and replace fluids in it periodically!


I never said it was an hour long experience, and while standing in the freezing cold is not pleasant, for me it was more about time and money. While the actual pumping process might take 5 minutes, driving out of my way to go to the gas station every week or two, sometimes waiting in line for a pump to open up, and then navigating back onto the way home adds up...week after week. And compared to what I pay in electricity, the additional time and money I spent on this adds up. Over the course of a year, just counting normal everyday driving, I estimate that I spent about 8 hours doing this. Sure, it's spread out over a year, but it's still a hassle. So when I hear someone complain that they have to add 30 extra minutes (if that) to a trip they take two or three times a year, I just have to wonder...


Why are you talking 0 to 100%? Do you actually drive your EV that way? Is that how you charge your phone? You wait until it's right down to 0% and then charge it all the way to 100% before turning it on again, and sit there and watch it the whole time? If this is how you think an EV is charged, you're simply doing it wrong.


I am not saying that in your particular experience that this is not true, although I question whether the perfect storm of having unplanned, emergency (immediate action) and remote (no Superchargers) is reality, or just an imagined scenario. At any rate, yes, unplanned things happen. It's a far stretch to make the statement that Teslas are not up to it, even if the likelihood is especially rare. I suppose if I lived out in the middle of nowhere 5 hours from the nearest hospital (if there even is such a place), then that person might have a case. Otherwise, what's so hard about keeping your car charged to a level capable of reaching the nearest Supercharger in 2021? For a vast majority of the population, this is easily done.


Well, I suspect you are over-complicating your description of "owner management" of the battery. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. You set a charge limit to "daily" most of the time, and "trip" when you are on a trip. You plug the car in when it's parked. You use the nav system when routing to a far away destination and let the car suggest charging stops. Sorry if I've missed something, but there is not really anything too difficult about that.
It must be nice to live in your world. ...and we're chasing each other around a silly tree...your comparisons are orders of magnitude apart...comparing a $60 phone battery to a $60K car battery? Seriously? As much as we all think Elon's expectations are outta wack I would imagine he is thinking the same about the current battery tech...it needs a quantum leap. Is it ready for prime time? He thinks so....I don't. It's a novelty, but I agree with the movement, and I am willing to do what I can. I just would not recommend anyone participate until I feel it's ready. ...my opinion.

I know a lot of folks who charge everything to 100% and grind that to 0! ...so yes...more common than you think.

I had an imminent life and death situation in the family last year on covid...I was just about done with an errand....no super charger could've helped me get there in time. That's just one case amongst many others.... Tesla had to sit at home...off with the Lexus.

I find that I have to baby sit the stupid car battery nearly every night depending on my next day's plans.... That's something I never had to do with my other cars. ..again...it must be nice to live in your world.
 
your comparisons are orders of magnitude apart...comparing a $60 phone battery to a $60K car battery? Seriously?
I wouldn't necessarily make that comparison, but I wondered if you would. At least both are based on the same underlying technology, unlike an EV and an ICE, which is the comparison that you are making when you have the same expectation about loss of range in an EV versus loss of range in an ICE.

I know a lot of folks who charge everything to 100% and grind that to 0! ...so yes...more common than you think.
Not sure if you're talking about consumer devices, or EVs. Consumer devices are one thing. I do that with my Kindle, my Bluetooth headphones, and other devices that are not critical from an uptime standpoint. I certainly don't do that with my EV, and there is rarely a reason to do so. During everyday use you would normally need only replenish what you used during the day, or in the case of long range EVs, you might plug in every 4-5 days for an overnight charge. And on a trip, it is almost always faster to make two 10-60% stops than a single 0-100% stop (if you even dare push the arrival SOC to actual 0%). So no, I don't believe that EV owners would do 0-100% charges on a regular basis. If they do, they definitely don't know what they are doing and deliberately ignoring what the car is telling them to do.

The only exception would be legs where the distance between Superchargers demands a long charge. Those segments do exist, and might even be more common in some parts of the country, but those gaps are being quickly filled.

I find that I have to baby sit the stupid car battery nearly every night depending on my next day's plans.... That's something I never had to do with my other cars. ..again...it must be nice to live in your world.
Sorry, but you're doing it wrong if you think you need to "baby sit" the battery. You literally just need to plug it in and walk inside and forget about it.