Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Model 3 roll-out speculation

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Thanks for your detailed response, Red Sage. Some of your points gave me a new perspective. I still don't know if I agree with the comparison between free glasses of water and free high electricity output at an independently-funded one-of-a-kind charging station, but I appreciate the sentiment. Again, I really hope you're right. I just think we have reason to be less sure than you are.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, MrBoylan. You can definitely make an argument either way. Bottom line is we'll find out. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
 
Thanks for your detailed response, Red Sage. Some of your points gave me a new perspective. I still don't know if I agree with the comparison between free glasses of water and free high electricity output at an independently-funded one-of-a-kind charging station, but I appreciate the sentiment. Again, I really hope you're right. I just think we have reason to be less sure than you are.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, MrBoylan. You can definitely make an argument either way. Bottom line is we'll find out. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Yes. And *for once* I would be more than happy to be proven wrong. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Sage
You make a strong case for including Supercharger access in the Model 3. I'm not saying that it's not useful or even game-changing. I'm saying it's not free. It costs Tesla some amount of money over the lifetime of each car (based on average use). The Tesla bean counters probably have a number for that, but I don't.
I'm not one of their bean counters, but I can fake it on the internet... ;-)

I figure that a Model S 60 cost $69,900 and that represented a probable 25% margin. Even so, they asked for another $2,000 at the time of order to activate Supercharger access, once they worked out the detail of just including the DC Charging hardware by default. So, there was already $17,475 in profit built into the car, and adding the amount for the hardware that had already been installed just added another $500, for a total of $17,975 profit per car. Now, even if you consider that the full $2,000 is barely 11.1% of the profit margin, that means a relatively small sliver of the profit is wrapped up in the Supercharger network.

If we presume the 'fair share' for Model ≡ cars is a similar percentage... And the profitability of the cars starts at 12% for the base version... Then we are talking $4,200 profit on a $35,000 car... And a whopping huge $473 of that profit margin earmarked to support Superchargers per car. Since there will eventually be ten times as many of the Model ≡ being manufactured as Model S, that means that anywhere from 1,500-to-2,500 cars per Supercharger... Thus, providing $709,735-to-$1,182,892 more revenue for each Supercharger... Not bad when one considers each location of 8 stalls costs in the neighborhood of 400,000 to install (per Pungoteague_Dave).

If the $35K price point was determined based on Supercharger access not being included in the car, then it won't be included in the car and it will be an added cost option. And I'm personally willing to pay for that as I know that a profitable Tesla (the company) is a long-lasting Tesla. I'm personally not expecting SC access for free for my $35K. Every time I've seen a reference to the supercharger network from Tesla, it has very explicitly said "free for life for all Model S and Model X owners".
I at least concede that Supercharger access for Model ≡ may be 'Free' only to the original purchaser from Tesla Motors. There could be a 'reactivation fee' of some sort for subsequent owners in the aftermarket. It might include an inspection as well, for around $500 or so. Cheapskates could simply pay less for a used car, and always plug up in their Mom's garage, I guess.

But hey, if Tesla can include lifetime free supercharger access in the Model 3 base model and still make a profit, and still have enough cash to build out the supercharger network to accommodate the massive influx in use, then that's great. And I'll get $2K to dump into some other options, like zombie-killing laser sighted EM pulse guns to go with my bioweapon defense mode air filter. :)

"Tesla - the best brand to have when the SHTF!"
That's the spirit! See, this is why I would opt for the Extended Service Agreement and similar items. Not because I need them, but to give Tesla Motors some more money to help keep them afloat. And ultimately, any and every option you add is going to contribute well tho their profitability.
 
Model 3 will be competitive with 3 series BMWs, not Toyota Camrys. The $35,000 price includes the federal tax rebate. Just imagine buying a 3 series that does not require a monthly gas expense or a lot of maintenance. If you drive a model 3 for a long time, the gas savings will cover the purchase cost. I could get one without supercharger access since we have a model S for trips.
Actually, there have been articles recently that state that the model 3 will indeed attract Camry/accord buyers. The demographics of model S owners (many, including myself, spending more on a MS than they ever have on a car previously) would support that theory.
 
I've enjoyed this thread and it has raised many valid points.

Still can't help feeling that if Mr Unknown stands in the queue at a Tesla store on 31 March and puts in an order for a base spec car, he is unlikely to see that car for a long, long time as Tesla will need to 'cash in' on the margins on high spec cars to get the juices flowing again.

Especially as Tesla has been burning through dollars as they ramp up everything.........

Whether the negative publicity from this is worth the extra cash flow is a fine debate! Maybe, indeed, the $35k Tesla will never actually arrive even if listed as 'available' - well at least not until demand is less than available production, By then (2020?) Tesla may be able to churn out base M3s at a decent margin anyway.

That crossover point is coming - it is just when? Primarily battery cost driven along with Tesla getting better at screwing cars together endlessly and faultlessly.....Presumably easier than with ICE vehicles in the longer run.
 
If we presume the 'fair share' for Model ≡ cars is a similar percentage... And the profitability of the cars starts at 12% for the base version... Then we are talking $4,200 profit on a $35,000 car... And a whopping huge $473 of that profit margin earmarked to support Superchargers per car. Since there will eventually be ten times as many of the Model ≡ being manufactured as Model S, that means that anywhere from 1,500-to-2,500 cars per Supercharger... Thus, providing $709,735-to-$1,182,892 more revenue for each Supercharger... Not bad when one considers each location of 8 stalls costs in the neighborhood of 400,000 to install (per Pungoteague_Dave).
See that's where I think the math actually starts to break down. There are currently somewhere between 60,000 and 70,000 Tesla Model S and Model X cars on the road in the United States. Let's assume it's 60,000 for the purpose of the math. As of today, there are a total of 260 supercharger stations open with a total of 1,707 charging bays (data from supercharge.info). So currently there are only 230 Teslas on the road per supercharger station, or one charging bay per 35 cars. In many areas, these superchargers are nowhere near capacity, most of the time, but we have seen lines at supercharger stations (particularly in California) at busy times like holiday weekends.

The cost of building those stations, according to your $400K per station math (which I haven't verified, but seems reasonable) would have been around $104 Million. If you take that $104,000,000 and divide the number of cars sold in the US, that means it has cost Tesla roughly $1700 per Tesla Model S or Model X sold to build out that supercharger network. So if costs stay constant on the build-out, and they want to maintain the same ratio of superchargers to cars on the road that they have today, that would mean they'd need to collect $1700 per car sold to build out the SC network at the same pace. And this doesn't take into consideration the electricity and maintenance costs associated with keeping the SuperChargers up and running. If we take that into consideration, the amount required per car may be something like $2,000 (or possibly higher).

Now at this point, all we have are rough numbers and estimates of things. Tesla would have a better idea, based on actual monitoring of Supercharger usage, as to where they need to build out more supercharger stations in order to satisfy growing demand. They'd have a better idea (at least better estimates) as to what the required vehicle to supercharger ratio is, too. But estimates are as good a starting point as anything, and I think the above math is sound, based on current numbers.

The bottom line is can Tesla afford to "give away" an option that may cost them $1700-$2000 per car in a car that is expected to sell for only $35,000 (half the current entry level Model S)? It's already an aggressive goal to build a Tesla and sell it for that price. And I'm not sure they could afford to also include lifetime SuperCharger access in that price and still be profitable. But really it depends on how far they can drop the other costs associated with the car. And that's something only Tesla knows (or will figure out over the next 18 months).

I just don't think anyone should think that Tesla broke a promise or let them down by not including lifetime SuperCharger access in a car at this price point. It hasn't been promised yet. It *may* not even be revealed on March 31. Or if it is revealed, they may not reveal the final cost of the option until closer to production.

With the Model X, the only details we had on pricing at or near its reveal were that it would be a "slight premium over the Model S." We didn't know the actual pricing of options and base models until November of 2015, about 6 weeks *after* Founders cars started being delivered and after Signature deposit holders had access to the design studio. I expect we may be in for something similar with the Model 3. Details of battery pack options and pricing will most likely not be revealed until late next year.
 
Last edited:
I haven't read all of the comments, but my opinion is if Tesla makes only "premium" versions of the Model 3 available at launch, they're going to have a lot of angry customers. They have been advertising the Model 3 as a $35,000 car (before incentives) for years and if they debut it at $45,000 or $50,000 and don't let people buy the base model for another 18-24 months, I as a Tesla fan would be offended. I've been waiting for years for the Model 3 and if it debuts out of my price range, I'm getting a Bolt.
 
I haven't read all of the comments, but my opinion is if Tesla makes only "premium" versions of the Model 3 available at launch, they're going to have a lot of angry customers. They have been advertising the Model 3 as a $35,000 car (before incentives) for years and if they debut it at $45,000 or $50,000 and don't let people buy the base model for another 18-24 months, I as a Tesla fan would be offended. I've been waiting for years for the Model 3 and if it debuts out of my price range, I'm getting a Bolt.

They've already stated that the high end configs will ship first, and it's what they did for both the Model S and Model X. However, that doesn't mean it's going to be 18-24 months to ship the base version. What if it's 3-6 months? If you've been waiting for years why is an extra few months a deal breaker?
 
I haven't read all of the comments, but my opinion is if Tesla makes only "premium" versions of the Model 3 available at launch, they're going to have a lot of angry customers. They have been advertising the Model 3 as a $35,000 car (before incentives) for years and if they debut it at $45,000 or $50,000 and don't let people buy the base model for another 18-24 months, I as a Tesla fan would be offended. I've been waiting for years for the Model 3 and if it debuts out of my price range, I'm getting a Bolt.
The Model 3 will debut at $35,000, just as the Model X debuted at $80,000. But they haven't shipped any of the $80,000 Model Xes yet as they're not able to ramp up production that quickly. While they are constrained on the production side, it makes good business sense to expedite the most profitable models (e.g. P90D and loaded up 90Ds). These also happen to be closest to the Signature and Founders series cars that they built first, so they required few tweaks to the production line in order to build. Again, maximizing revenue - and optimizing throughput - while they are production-constrained.

The first 70D model Xes will probably ship in Q3 or Q4 (or maybe they'll be upgraded to a 75D at no additional cost, which is a pet theory of mine). Does this means some people who ordered a Model X got their cars sooner than orders who ordered a less expensive, less fully featured model? Yes. And this happens all the time and not just in the auto industry.

If the Model 3 is significantly simpler to manufacturer than the Model X then hopefully they can ramp up production of all variations faster, and start getting the base models out there quicker than they have with the Model S and Model X.