Navigate on Autopilot is Going to Cause Accidents

[Superspectral]

So...I had the opportunity to try "Navigate on Autopilot" and I survived the experience. However, I had to take control numerous times when the car did some pretty dodgy maneuvers.

The weakness of these driver assist technologies: cruise control, adaptive cruise control, autosteer, and now "navigate on autopilot" is that to use them safely, I think the operator has to be engaged with the road and traffic environment and *anticipate* when the system is going to fail - and then take over in plenty of time. This avoids putting the system in a situation it can't handle.

For example, it is pretty intuitive that if you are using plain old cruise control that if you are coming up to stopped traffic you need to engage the brakes and stop. Less obvious, but still pretty basic is that if you are behind a slow moving vehicle on ACC, if that vehicle moves out of your lane - your ACC is going to make you accelerate. At each step, however, it takes more and more experience to figure out when the autosteer (or now "navigate on autopilot") is going to fail.

So where did "Navigate on Autopilot" get dodgy? First, lane changes to faster lanes.The system now suggests a lane change when maybe it is still too complex a traffic situation that I wouldn't have tried on plain old autosteer. A car will zoom up or change into a lane ahead from a far lane. I'm not sure autopilot is really aware of cars in the *next* lane over. Then it starts hesitating. And then I have to take over when if is waffling between lanes. Not good.

Then, there is exiting the freeway. The system now leaves you in the left fast lane for a while. Of course, you have to get in the right lane ahead of your exit. The dodgy situation is that the exit you want is 2 or 3 down from a series of entrances letting in a lot of traffic into the right lane. Navigate on Autopilot didn't get me into the right lane ahead of all that incoming traffic. Rather, asked me to merge in. I don't think it sees the cars on the on ramp until they are one lane over. So once again, hesitation and aborted lane change.

Lastly, there is auto exit onto an off ramp. You better be ready to take over and hit the brakes. Under plain auto steer, the inattentive driver misses his exit. Now he's heading to the traffic stop.

So yes, I get it- you are supposed to be watching. And I think I will be able to figure out when and how I could trust this "navigate on autopilot" and *liberally* take over. The question is: Will the average Joe think this a whole lot more capable than it is - and then get caught in some dangerous situation prior to learning the should have anticipated a failure a lot earlier?

So how has hat it worked for other people? What level of trust do you have?

 

[StellarRat]

At each step, however, it takes more and more experience to figure out when the autosteer (or now "navigate on autopilot") is going to fail...

So yes, I get it- you are supposed to be watching. And I think I will be able to figure out when and how I could trust this "navigate on autopilot" and *liberally* take over. The question is: Will the average Joe think this a whole lot more capable than it is - and then get caught in some dangerous situation prior to learning the should have anticipated a failure a lot earlier?...

So how has hat it worked for other people? What level of trust do you have?

I don't trust EAP much at all. I think it has a way to go before I'll not worry about it all the time. For now, it's just a cruise control that can steer and control the speed some of time to me. I'm hoping one day that if I turn it on under the appropriate conditions I won't have to think in the back of my head, "How could this mess up now." For now, I have trained myself to "think like the EAP" while I'm using so I can anticipate failures.

 

[woodisgood]

I haven’t had a chance to extensively try Nav on AP yet, but from what I’m hearing so far it seems like I might as well have full control if I have to be so engaged in the process.

 

[ewoodrick]

I'm not really sure why you explain the car's actions as dodgy, they seem to be as designed, and seem to be safe. More along the lines that the driver may be a little stodgy.

First, it is BETA. You should have read the long disclaimer when enabling it. It is known and expected to have some issues. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to.

Both of your scenarios suggested an inattentive driver. If you don't like the suggested lane change, don't take it. It's suggested, not mandatory. Tesla had to add the suggestion part instead of just doing it. "If the driver doesn't realize their exit" is again inattentive. It's not that a number of warnings have appeared, it's not as if the nav system verbally announced the exist. And it's not as if the driver has a half second to react, it's an off-ramp, should be plenty of time to react, especially with the automatic deceleration.

Yes, this is probably not a car that an inattentive driver should be driving. But then again, inattentive drivers shouldn't be driving.

 

[DDotJ]

Yeah, I agree it was pretty sketchy when I first tried it yesterday. Few things I noticed:

1) It slams the brakes when in the fast lane when trying to move into a slower lane. Which makes the guy behind me not too happy.
1.5) Also when it changes lanes from a slow lane into a faster lane, it doesn't accelerate fast enough. Like going from a lane with a truck going 55 to a faster lane going 75+.It doesn't start speeding up until fully seated in the new lane. Whereas a human driver will speed up while doing the lane change maneuver to not disrupt traffic behind you.

2) Sometimes mistakes cars 2 lanes over as to being right next to me. So it will initiate a lane change and then suddenly abort for a false positive vehicle supposedly in my blind spot.

3) Doesn't speed up on an on-ramp fast enough, so it tries merging at 40 MPH when traffic is going 70+.

4) When lane changing into a lane that has 2 lanes turn into 1, it freaks out and aborts while throwing an error. When I was trying to change into the far right lane to take an exit, that lane had two lanes merge into one from the on ramp. As the car tried to change lanes into it, it jerked away and aborted at the last second.

5) Not fast enough at lane changes. I have an area of my commute where I need to take an exit right after an interchange by moving two lanes over in quick succession. The car can't handle it.

6) Driver Confusion. It wanted confirmation for a lane change so I flipped on the turn signal but it didn't move at all, with no dotted lines. Turn signal was still on. So I had to disengage the turn signal and turn it back on for it to finally accept my confirmation. Odd.

7) It wanted me to rejoin the HOV lane 0.7 miles before my exit. Lane selection logic definitely needs improvement.

The way the car drove did it really inspire much confidence. Kinda felt like I was riding with a teen on their first time on the freeway. But these are just the stepping stones to a more full-featured EAP and I can accept that. I can definitely see why ULC was disabled from the start.

Definitely needs a bit of work for it to work reliably enough. Hopefully that will be sooner than later. Can't wait until this feature matures, it would be awesome. But for now, I'll probably only use it for very long drives that are less complex.

 

[outdoors]

Turning NOA off till I see some updates that make is seem more reliable. I think it is really tentative in taking exits. Many exits have a potential for hitting a gore zone as a potential reasoning. If the car doesn't start early in the exit process it can get a bit wonky making driver have to take exit while turning off AP quickly reducing the time to actually take the exit which can be pretty scary when you are seeing this. Car missed several exits. Yes I could have taken them, but was wanting to see how well it works.

It also gives me the warning that it is limited in poor weather on both cars. Weather that just AP can handle just fine currently. Have discussed dirty or wet cameras in other threads. Was happy with auto lane changing. I enjoy the lane recommendation aspect from the grey line for up coming exit. Doesn't really do well even at mad max mode for suggestion of new lanes that are moving quicker. Then when it does I am up close to the slow moving car. It is such a big differential I am worried that car in fast lanes are just going to crush me as I jump out. Has even twice jumped, and jumped back into the slow lane. I call those crazy Ivan's.

Just not ready for prime time, and yes I get it I don't have to use it. Just sharing my experience like others. I am not sure it is that people are not being attentive, but more that people feel that they could maybe operate the car easier themselves the old way till it is perfected.

As reference this was in both in S&3 over a two day period. One dry day and one wet one. Roughly 200 miles.... Not so sure about causing accidents, just making me think more than I have to currently while driving.

 

[Msjulie]

1) It slams the brakes when in the fast lane when trying to move into a slower lane. Which makes the guy behind me not too happy.
1.5) Also when it changes lanes from a slow lane into a faster lane, it doesn't accelerate fast enough. Like going from a lane with a truck going 55 to a faster lane going 75+.It doesn't start speeding up until fully seated in the new lane. Whereas a human driver will speed up while doing the lane change maneuver to not disrupt traffic behind you.

I have experienced both of those with regular old TACC - my impression of it is of a young driver not looking far enough ahead before planning moves and otherwise not as aware of other cars as I might like

Have to hope it's coming..

 

[ngogas]

Thus it's called BETA feature. AKA Watch like a hawk.

 

[t6061]

I used it this morning on my commute from San Clemente to Newport Beach (5/405) and it worked just fine for me. It suggested reasonable lane changes and managed traffic to my left during said lane changes with no difficulty. Until we have the option to just allow the Navigate on AutoPilot to operate autonomously it might be nice to have a chime whenever a suggested lane change is being offered so you don't miss the suggestion (which is currently just the gray line appearing on either side of the solid blue line). Exiting from the HOV lane to maneuver 5 lanes over for the exit at Jamboree was started too late but a pop up warning asked me to assist when it was clear the EAP might not make the exit. I did like that when the HOV lane opened up from one to two lanes (headed North just South of the Irvine Spectrum) it activated the turn signal without my intervention and chose the correct of two lanes for the transition from the 5 to 405. I had it on Mad Max mode and admittedly watched it closely but I was impressed. It is a little glimpse into the future but as with any of these aids, driver awareness is still very much a requirement.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Agreed that this is not all sorted out yet.
It does the easy stuff pretty well. Drives you down your lane, controls you speed due to vehicle ahead of you and going into corners.
It changes lanes with the click of a turn signal, and warns you if there might be a car blocking your maneuver.

If you get into challenging conditions, the driver is often the best choice to maintain control. In lots of traffic, where congestion makes merging a challenge, the computer is often challenged. If you need to get over multiple lanes, in heavy traffic, in a hurry and you don't want to miss your merge, then the driver should take control.

After a while I have become aware of when I can pretty much relax and let the autopilot get me down the road. I also am aware when I should take ove myself. In congested construction zones, driving among agressive drivers, when trying to make time, when various drivers in different lanes are all driving different speeds, when in the right lane with merging traffic and when the road lines are poorly marked, or there have been multiple lane markings form previous road layouts.

This does not mean the system is flawed, just that it is learning and adapting.

Over the past 18 Months I have seen tremendous improvement in the autopilot capabilities. It is getting better and better, but just like a 6 year old human driver, it needs additional experience to get it all together.

 

[aaron0k]

Thus it's called BETA feature. AKA Watch like a hawk.

"Beta" is just Tesla trying to limit their liability; which I don't think is sound since it's enabled regardless. They really should require drivers take an online course (aka 'watch it like a hawk') prior to activation of AP or any newly introduced features.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

So, you very quickly found that it had problems with a bunch of stuff, but think that other people (who aren't above average like you) won't notice those problems?

 

[sperkin]

I don't trust NoA.

First, Navigation has some bad routing even when I set it to save me "30 min" that it will tell me to get off the freeway and then get back On. In real situation it is even slower than just sitting in traffic on the freeway. It's LA. It's slow everywhere. I don't want to get off and make 3 lefts and 2 right turns on local streets.

2nd, NoA can't change lanes in LA traffic. It doesn't plan and predict. It just sits there and wait for someone to give it space. By then another car would take that spot before AP moves in. It failed every single lane change this morning.

3rd, even when I don't want to take the suggested lane, AP will slow down a lot and wait for me to confirm. Almost got rear ended.

It's not safe at the moment to use. I feel better and safer doing the lane change myself.

 

[WileyTheMan]

I don't trust EAP much at all.

This, right here. Treat EAP like a teenager learning how to drive. Never stop paying attention and be ready to take over at any time.

 

[whatthe2]

I just got 42.3 this morning and had the chance to test NoA for a about five miles on the highway - it was mostly a positive experience. The only issue I had was when I was in lane 2 (second from right) and it wanted me to move to lane 1 to make a pass on slower traffic. Problem was it was a climb lane and I knew lane 1 was ending soon. I opted to move left to lane 3 to complete my pass. It would’ve been close as to whether or not I would have made the pass in lane 1 before it ended. Still some learning, but so far it was pretty good.

 

[miimura]

I just got 42.3 this morning and had the chance to test NoA for a about five miles on the highway - it was mostly a positive experience. The only issue I had was when I was in lane 2 (second from right) and it wanted me to move to lane 1 to make a pass on slower traffic. Problem was it was a climb lane and I knew lane 1 was ending soon. I opted to move left to lane 3 to complete my pass. It would’ve been close as to whether or not I would have made the pass in lane 1 before it ended. Still some learning, but so far it was pretty good.

This is the way lanes are numbered. Thanks for explaining what you meant though.

 

[whatthe2]

This is the way lanes are numbered. Thanks for explaining what you meant though.

Yeah thanks. As a former Police Officer I should know this. Been a while though and I was a beat Cop.

 

[Superspectral]

Yeah, I agree it was pretty sketchy when I first tried it yesterday. Few things I noticed:

1) It slams the brakes when in the fast lane when trying to move into a slower lane. Which makes the guy behind me not too happy.
1.5) Also when it changes lanes from a slow lane into a faster lane, it doesn't accelerate fast enough. Like going from a lane with a truck going 55 to a faster lane going 75+.It doesn't start speeding up until fully seated in the new lane. Whereas a human driver will speed up while doing the lane change maneuver to not disrupt traffic behind you.

2) Sometimes mistakes cars 2 lanes over as to being right next to me. So it will initiate a lane change and then suddenly abort for a false positive vehicle supposedly in my blind spot.

3) Doesn't speed up on an on-ramp fast enough, so it tries merging at 40 MPH when traffic is going 70+.

4) When lane changing into a lane that has 2 lanes turn into 1, it freaks out and aborts while throwing an error. When I was trying to change into the far right lane to take an exit, that lane had two lanes merge into one from the on ramp. As the car tried to change lanes into it, it jerked away and aborted at the last second.

5) Not fast enough at lane changes. I have an area of my commute where I need to take an exit right after an interchange by moving two lanes over in quick succession. The car can't handle it.

6) Driver Confusion. It wanted confirmation for a lane change so I flipped on the turn signal but it didn't move at all, with no dotted lines. Turn signal was still on. So I had to disengage the turn signal and turn it back on for it to finally accept my confirmation. Odd.

7) It wanted me to rejoin the HOV lane 0.7 miles before my exit. Lane selection logic definitely needs improvement.

The way the car drove did it really inspire much confidence. Kinda felt like I was riding with a teen on their first time on the freeway. But these are just the stepping stones to a more full-featured EAP and I can accept that. I can definitely see why ULC was disabled from the start.

Definitely needs a bit of work for it to work reliably enough. Hopefully that will be sooner than later. Can't wait until this feature matures, it would be awesome. But for now, I'll probably only use it for very long drives that are less complex.

This is a really good list of the issues. It definitely is not authoritative enough being confident it has found an opening to merge into the right lane to prepare for an exit. If there is oncoming traffic from further right - it backs off. Meanwhile your original spot may be lost.

If it is a very low traffic situation (no bumper to bumper clumps in the lane you need to go to) - it might be OK.

What I don’t quite like about the “beta” warning is that the more capable the self driving - the more the “bad situation” develops giving you little time to suddenly realize the system is hesitating or confused.

I’d be afraid that I’ll get pulled over for a DUI check for the weaving.

 

[sperkin]

Just got 42.4 so hope hope of the bugs are fixed. I will try NoA again.

One thing I forgot to note is when the car had room to change lanes it will go into the lane half way and swerve back before it changes lane again.

 

[Frunkenstein]

I've been using this daily to hopefully give Tesla data to improve it as it does need work. The lane suggestions are a joke. There have been several times that a car is literally next to me or slightly in front of me and it wants me to confirm. Uh, no. For grins and giggles, I used my signal under one of their "suggested" lane changes and the car slammed on the brakes and dove behind the car to the right doing 10 mph slower than the lane I was in. Fail

It also absolutely cannot handle exits where you need to cross over two lanes. I had to make two excessive maneuvers, crossing over dividers to make the exit. Needless to say, I disengage AP now before I hit that spot.

I will need to play with it some more. I upped it from "mild" to "average" to see if that helps. I also dropped follow distance from 3 to 2 to see if that helps. Speaking of which, what situations would you want to have a follow distance of 7?!?! I started with 4, and it felt like an eternity away. 3 was better, but I think 2 is just enough.