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Uber with a Tesla

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Here's how your ride would be priced and paid in my market - a typical large suburban-mix city (ie, not NY, Chicago, or LA. Think Denver, Houston, or Phoenix)

Opening the rider app and picking a point 20 miles from the local airport, Lyft would charge $32 to get you there.

Assuming the ride took 40 minutes (about right) here's how the driver gets paid:
Base Fare: $0.75
Time ($0.12/min): $4.80
Mileage ($0.60/mile): $12
Tolls: $2
Bonuses: (Not very common in this market) $0
Tip: (~1 out of 4 riders tip)​

Total: $19.55 (So the rule of thumb is - whatever the fare is, the driver gets a little more than half. Remember that if you tip.)

Driver cost @ $0.58/mile: $11.60 + $2 Tolls
Driver profit after costs: $5.95
Driver hourly rate: $8.93/hr

Ok, so in this isolated example we actually got pretty close to minimum wage. But there are some factors that push it lower. You always have to drive TO the pickup - typically a couple miles, but sometimes up to 7 or 8. That's time and mileage you're not being paid for. And this ride example actually is a pretty "good" fare. Most rides are well under 10 miles. My average pay for a ride is closer to $6. That means that the unpaid mileage getting TO the fare increases proportionately. It's not uncommon to have only 3 rides in an hour (which is pretty close to the max possible here) and make less that $10 gross. And I know you don't want to include time or distance while waiting for the fare, but those do factor into the equation.

Maybe I'm just bad luck when I check for Uber prices. From my home to the airport in an area of approx 200k population it's $34.39 for an UberX right now (so who knows if it goes up late at night or if there is surge prices on Friday, etc). The route is 13.5 miles and takes about 20 minutes, and that's fairly accurate from when I've driven it. That means a round trip to the airport and back could be almost $70 (or more depending on demand) before any thought of a tip or anything. Parking at the airport is $10/day, so 7 day trip just to break even on that cost...

If the driver is getting 60% (which appears to be what your numbers show) they make ~$20.60 for that trip. By your numbers the cost to the driver to do that route would be ~$7.80. There is NO WAY that less than 14 miles costs almost $8. A 25mpg car that has to get fuel at $3.25/gal would cost approx $0.13/mile. Yes you need to factor in oil changes and mileage on the car, but that can't be more then a couple bucks, especially with all the $29.99 oil change places around and most cars not having any major issues before 100k miles. So fuel and maintenance on the car probably costs more like $3.50 or $4 at the most. You also get some tax benefit to that...

That means the driver could make about $16.50 off a 20 to 25 minute ride. Yes they might not be able to line up another ride right after that, but if you could get two of those an hour, you would be making at least $25/hr.

Maybe short rides aren't worth it and you should just be doing airport transfers?
 
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There is NO WAY that less than 14 miles costs almost $8.

My estimate is the government's deduction for business vehicles - $.58/mile - so yes $8.12 for 14 miles. It's intended to account for the total cost of an average vehicle including depreciation, fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, etc. Now you might think the government is being a little overly generous here...I'll let go for another thread. But simply dividing the price of a modern car by say a life expectancy of 200,000 miles and you're already half way to that number.

Yes they might not be able to line up another ride right after that, but if you could get two of those an hour, you would be making at least $25/hr.

In six months of driving the highest hourly rate - before costs - I've had over a week has been $22.50. The average is $17. Are there times when the rate is higher? Yes. And times where it's much much lower.

Your (and others) suggestion to only take profitable rides has some problems:

1. When you accept a ride, you don't know where the rider is going. So there is no way to only accept riders going to the airport or filter out short rides. (well, there sorta is...see #3 below)
2. You can get in a queue to pick up riders FROM the airport, but the queue here is typically between 25 and 90 drivers - you need to be at the airport in a staging area for somewhere between 15 and 90 minutes on busy days. Factor that into your per-hour earnings.
3. You - as a driver - are ranked on three things. Accept rate, rating, and cancel rate. Ride-share companies and drivers recommend keeping your accept rate over 90% or the ride-share companies will stop pushing rides to you. Same with low ratings - which come from angry customers if you cancel a ride because it's "too short" to meet your criteria. Same with cancel rate. When a driver cancels a ride neither the ride-share company nor the driver get paid - it's a quick way to get banned.

So yes, I stand by my original assertion (formed after actually driving for six months) that ride-share drivers are subsidizing ride-share companies by donating their car to the cause in exchange for hourly pay below minimum wage.
 
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My estimate is the government's deduction for business vehicles - $.58/mile - so yes $8.12 for 14 miles. It's intended to account for the total cost of an average vehicle including depreciation, fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, etc. Now you might think the government is being a little overly generous here...I'll let go for another thread. But simply dividing the price of a modern car by say a life expectancy of 200,000 miles and you're already half way to that number.



In six months of driving the highest hourly rate - before costs - I've had over a week has been $22.50. The average is $17. Are there times when the rate is higher? Yes. And times where it's much much lower.

Your (and others) suggestion to only take profitable rides has some problems:

1. When you accept a ride, you don't know where the rider is going. So there is no way to only accept riders going to the airport or filter out short rides. (well, there sorta is...see #3 below)
2. You can get in a queue to pick up riders FROM the airport, but the queue here is typically between 25 and 90 drivers - you need to be at the airport in a staging area for somewhere between 15 and 90 minutes on busy days. Factor that into your per-hour earnings.
3. You - as a driver - are ranked on three things. Accept rate, rating, and cancel rate. Ride-share companies and drivers recommend keeping your accept rate over 90% or the ride-share companies will stop pushing rides to you. Same with low ratings - which come from angry customers if you cancel a ride because it's "too short" to meet your criteria. Same with cancel rate. When a driver cancels a ride neither the ride-share company nor the driver get paid - it's a quick way to get banned.

So yes, I stand by my original assertion (formed after actually driving for six months) that ride-share drivers are subsidizing ride-share companies by donating their car to the cause in exchange for hourly pay below minimum wage.

I know that’s the government deduction for a vehicle, but I think that’s with the assumption that you need to BUY the vehicle for the business. Most people have a car. You normally don’t factor in the cost per mile of your car when you get any other job.

Even factoring in the cost of the vehicle doesn’t really make sense unless you’re leasing a car or a business getting a new car every three or four years...

A $20k Honda Civic that got 34 mph would have a cost break down like this...

$0.125/mile if fuel was $4/gallon
$0.017/mile with oil changes every 3,000 miles at $49.99
$0.12/mile for $150 a month insurance (based on driving 15k miles a year)
$0.02/mile for $1500 “unexpected” repair by 75k miles

That would make a per mile cost of ~$0.28/mile “cost” to use the car.

If you really want to factor in the total cost of the car (DO NOT buy a car for Uber/Lyft) with an estimated life of 100k miles, that would add another $0.2/mile which leaves you STILL under that government $0.58/mile. Plus that’s a deduction, so you’re saving some money with that number.

Yes there are absolutely costs to using your car for ride share, but I doubt anyone is paying $4/gal routinely for fuel, insurance might be more like $100/mo, I bet most people do an oil change more like 5k to 10k miles, and honestly I think the average car now adays would last 150k miles in this situation or more (I suspect age actually is more stressful on the car than miles. Plastic and rubber getting brittle, etc). I peg it more at like $0.20 to $0.25/mile

If you’re driving 15k miles a year for work you’ll be able to deduct $8,700 from your taxable income which if you were in the 12% tax bracket would reduce your owed amount by $1,044... or almost $0.07/mile savings. So now your $0.25/mile cost is $0.18/mile.

It’s the hours spent not with a fare that is dragging down the hourly income.
 
Sorry, finished reading your three points. This says to me that the market is saturated with drivers. I guess the big busy airports just such for traffic flow, but there needs to be something done with that wait. This is where I think scheduling would work better than on demand. Drivers should be able to show up 10 to 15 minutes (max) early and pick up from the airport. When I hire a private black car service to pick myself (or a friend) up from the airport, they get real time flight info and usually aren’t waiting for longer than about 10 minutes, unless traffic is really light and they just get to the airport in great time. There is no reason why Uber couldn’t tie a major flight tracker into their dispatch app and allow customers to book a ride 2 hours before departure or something. That would give ample time to digitally queue drivers and reduce time just sitting in a car. It’s really unfortunate that drivers just have to be there waiting. If you (as a company) still want “on demand” than allow that, but make a $5 surcharge for requesting an airport pickup less than an hour in advance or something and pass that 100% to the waiting driver.

Do you see how much the fare is worth to you? I can get maybe not seeing where they are going (discrimination to low income neighborhoods, etc), but estimated time, miles, and payout to driver should be shown. If not, that again is just a crappy company.

The acceptance rate is just ridiculous. I thought the whole idea was work as often as you want or as little. I get that Uber wants drivers on the road and people not artificially declining rides to invoke a surge event or something, but there should be a way to identify yourself as a “part time” or “casual” driver where there is no penalty for not accepting rides. If you want to only give one ride a night that is a high fare ride (airport transfer, across town at rush hour type thing, etc) you should be able to. If Uber has markets where there isn’t enough “full time” drivers than they should give an incentive to encourage drivers to work more, but on a weekly basis or something. (Acceptance rate of 90% or above for five days in a row and you earn an extra X amount of dollars for each of those trips, etc. I’m sure they could figure out some system...)

More than anything it seems like Uber is a lazy company. Just get as many cars on the road and don’t worry about anything else. Reduce the number of drivers out there, nudge customers into pre-planning trips (airport transfer, business meetings, etc. I’m sure customers would plan the trips they could if they avoided a *demand* fee or something)... optimize as much as possible. If a driver could line up a trip to the airport and a trip back from the airport with minimal dead time (~25 minutes), doing that once a shift could go a long way to offsetting some shorter bar to bar hops that are just a few bucks...
 
I know that’s the government deduction for a vehicle, but I think that’s with the assumption that you need to BUY the vehicle for the business. Most people have a car. You normally don’t factor in the cost per mile of your car when you get any other job.

Even factoring in the cost of the vehicle doesn’t really make sense unless you’re leasing a car or a business getting a new car every three or four years...

A $20k Honda Civic that got 34 mph would have a cost break down like this...

$0.125/mile if fuel was $4/gallon
$0.017/mile with oil changes every 3,000 miles at $49.99
$0.12/mile for $150 a month insurance (based on driving 15k miles a year)
$0.02/mile for $1500 “unexpected” repair by 75k miles

That would make a per mile cost of ~$0.28/mile “cost” to use the car.

If you really want to factor in the total cost of the car (DO NOT buy a car for Uber/Lyft) with an estimated life of 100k miles, that would add another $0.2/mile which leaves you STILL under that government $0.58/mile. Plus that’s a deduction, so you’re saving some money with that number.


You forgot tires, which you burn through faster driving more. And brakes, wipers, and all other expected wear items other than oil. Also scheduled maintenance items like brake fluid, transmission/diff fluid, spark plugs, belts, cabin and engine filters, etc...

(also weird you did the math on 100k miles for cost of car, but only 75k for unexpected repairs?)

Also you can't get a new civic for 20k.

$25,599 is the price for a base model on truecar

I'm sure you can get a used one, but then maintenance and repairs will be higher, sooner.
 
Maybe I'm just bad luck when I check for Uber prices. From my home to the airport in an area of approx 200k population it's $34.39 for an UberX right now (so who knows if it goes up late at night or if there is surge prices on Friday, etc). The route is 13.5 miles and takes about 20 minutes, and that's fairly accurate from when I've driven it. That means a round trip to the airport and back could be almost $70 (or more depending on demand) before any thought of a tip or anything. Parking at the airport is $10/day, so 7 day trip just to break even on that cost...

In Omaha that ride would be roughly $25 with the driver getting $13 or $14. Remember that the driver most likely will have to drive 5 miles and 12 minutes to pick you up. Most of the times they are driving you away from where the demand is so they might have to go back those 13.5 miles for a new ride.

When the prices surge Uber takes ~70% of that money and the tips are less. For example that $25 ride might surge to $50. In that case Uber will now put out a flat rate bonus of say $2 or $3 to get more drivers to that area. That passenger is now paying $25 extra will not tip or tip much less. That driver now made $13 + $3 bonus + no tip.

With Uber Comfort the driver roughly gets an extra $.07/mile with the passenger pays roughly $.80/mile.
 
I think that’s with the assumption that you need to BUY the vehicle for the business. Most people have a car. You normally don’t factor in the cost per mile of your car when you get any other job.

Yes and this is EXACTLY my point. Lyft/Uber's model depends, to a large degree, on people who do NOT buy a car specifically for ridesharing, and 'don’t factor in the cost per mile of your car.'

If the only people who drove for Lyft/Uber were those willing to buy a car specifically for ridesharing and accept no less than minimum wage (which is possible if you optimize all the variables - cost of owning/operating the vehicle being foremost), they wouldn't have NEARLY enough drivers or income to make their business work. It doesn't work without the casual driver majority. There is a business like this actually - traditional taxi companies - and the casual drivers are how Lyft/Uber is able to add significantly more tech and STILL undercut the taxi companies.
 
You forgot tires, which you burn through faster driving more. And brakes, wipers, and all other expected wear items other than oil. Also scheduled maintenance items like brake fluid, transmission/diff fluid, spark plugs, belts, cabin and engine filters, etc...

(also weird you did the math on 100k miles for cost of car, but only 75k for unexpected repairs?)

Also you can't get a new civic for 20k.

$25,599 is the price for a base model on truecar

I'm sure you can get a used one, but then maintenance and repairs will be higher, sooner.

From Honda's site, Civic starts at $20,650 USD, though I will admit that I misquoted the fuel efficiency, it's really only 30 mpg city, though that shouldn't change the numbers much, especially when I went with $4/gal as the fuel cost. You could get an Insight for $23k and get over 50mpg!

Anyway, again, no one should be buying a car for Uber. You have a car, you do uber to help pay the bills as a second job or as a primary job when you have limited hours/changing schedule (in school or taking care of family members, etc).

You're right that I did not factor in the cost of tires. I figure most uber drivers are probably going to places like Walmart for tires and I suspect you can find 40k or 50k tires there for maybe $115 to $135/tire, especially in the 16 inch size. But lets say you spend $1,000 on tires that last only 40k miles, that still only $0.025/mile. I suspect most brake fluid and transmission fluid lasts at least 50k miles but probably doesn't get replaced before 100k miles with most people, maybe never. Spark plugs usually last at least 50k miles and again probably in 90% of cases last 100k miles or never get replaced. Cabin and engine filters would add a small cost, probably less than $200 to replace them every two years or so, those are all very small costs when looking at operating expenses. I still think you're below the $0.58/mile number because no one is paying $4/gal for gas right now, people should NOT be buying a new car for this (if you don't already have a car, don't get into uber/lyft, you're just not going to make money), and this all assumes the car is literally no usable after 100k miles. If you can sell the car for $5,000 at the "end of life" at 100k miles, then you minus $0.05/mile off your expenses during those 100k.

I did the math based on 100k trying to pick a number that was the "end of life" for the car. A point where it might have high enough miles that it made more sense to buy a new car instead of repairing the old. However, I assumed that the old car had $0 value now. This might be true if you gave it to a child or kept it as a second car or something. But I'm sure you could get at least $1,500 to $2,000 trade value and probably $5,000 private party sale. All that actually reduces the cost per mile of it.

I did the math on an unexpected repair at 75k miles because I wanted a "worst case" cost. You're probably under warranty for the first 40 to 50k and you might have an engine/transmission warranty for 100k. However, lets assume an expensive cost happened by the time you hit 75k miles, then that was factored into the cost. You might actually not have any expensive repair during the whole 100k life of the car. Then that $1,500 budgeted toward an unexpected repair wouldn't be used and again you actually are less expense per mile.

The bottom line is the most expensive thing is going to be fuel and insurance. The fuel is a hard expense that has no way around it. If you're working you're using fuel. However, the insurance is actually an "unfair" cost toward the expense of driving for uber. If you have a car and drive to another job, or drive for fun, or drive to the store, or any reason, then you already [should] have insurance. Yes working ride share will be more expensive, but it's not going to be $150/mo more expensive. I was taking the total cost of insurance, but you might be paying $80/mo already for personal insurance and ride share might only add $30/month. In that case you really should only calculate the cost per mile of working based off the extra cost of insurance by saying you're a ride share.

Again, I think realistically for the average adult that has a 1 to 3 year old car in good condition and either was a stay at home parent or worked some other job (retail, store manager, etc) many of those costs you already would be paying and the ride share portion wouldn't add that much more other than fuel. You're additional maintenance, insurance, and fuel per mile probably is down near the $0.20 to $0.25/mile range. Much of that you would be able to deduct from taxes and you might realize a savings of $0.05 to $0.07/mile which means actual out of pocket additional cost would be like $0.15 to $0.20 a mile. Again, DO NOT start ride sharing from the ground up. Don't buy insurance and a car if you already can get by without those things.
 
Yes and this is EXACTLY my point. Lyft/Uber's model depends, to a large degree, on people who do NOT buy a car specifically for ridesharing, and 'don’t factor in the cost per mile of your car.'

If the only people who drove for Lyft/Uber were those willing to buy a car specifically for ridesharing and accept no less than minimum wage (which is possible if you optimize all the variables - cost of owning/operating the vehicle being foremost), they wouldn't have NEARLY enough drivers or income to make their business work. It doesn't work without the casual driver majority. There is a business like this actually - traditional taxi companies - and the casual drivers are how Lyft/Uber is able to add significantly more tech and STILL undercut the taxi companies.

Casual drivers shouldn't be buying a car for this and shouldn't see drastically higher expenses because of it. A casual driver should do an airport transfer on Saturday and Sunday, say 15 miles (and we'll even count 30 miles round trip). If they do two of those a week and make $20 during each they're picking up $173/month gross. They're driving an extra ~3200 miles a year. Fuel at $4/gal with a 30mpg car is costing $426/year (again, no one is paying that right now). One extra oil change is costing $50/year. The extra wear towards new tires ($1000 set that last 40k miles) is $80 a year. Someone should already have insurance if they're just doing it casually and lets assume the extra cost when you say ride share is $30/mo. You write off 3,200 miles a year at $0.58/mile and reduce taxable income in the 12% bracket by $1,856 which saves you $222/year.

Monthly income from casual ride share $173
Monthly [High] Estimate of expenses $76
Yearly tax benefit shown monthly $18.50

That's $115 extra a month. Yes it's still below minimum wage and getting another job would probably be better, but this is spending about four hours total a weekend (two each on Saturday and Sunday). You would be hard pressed to find a part time job that just let you come in a couple hours each day on the weekends. That's a nice dinner out once a month, or maybe two movie dates. If you save all year that's almost $1400 toward a little vacation for a small family (either a couple or two adults with a kid). Nothing big, but probably a weekend at the beach with a modest ~$200/night hotel (Check in Friday, check out Sunday), $300 in food ($150 Sat and $150 Sunday), and some spending money to rent surfboards or bikes or play at the arcade ($150), plus $100 in gas and some extra to cover misc costs.

I deeply believe that uber/lyft is NOT designed as a full time job, or even a part time job to cover living expenses. This is a perfect college student job (if they have a somewhat decent car) for 10 hours a week at weird times between classes for spending money, or covering the cost of text books, or something else. Or a perfect job for a stay at home parent that can do some work on the weekends when the other parent can be home watching the kids. It's great for getting a little spending money for some extra fun which might not be in the budget or maybe saving up for something. This is a casual sign on the app and see if you can make a little money type thing. Uber shouldn't be penalizing drivers for only working 30 hours a month. If there aren't enough cars on the road then the cost goes up to what the market will pay. Uber should also be extremely lean. All they are is a software company, they should have a small core of software engineers and the rest should be computer expenses. I haven't had time to dig through Uber's public documents, but they must literally be burning money to heat the building or something. There is no reason they can't be wildly profitable while only taking a few bucks per ride. Their target should be like 15 to 20% of every fare, not almost half and more when there are surge prices? None of it makes sense and people really should just stop driving for them.
 
I'm going to disagree with your cost estimate - it's incomplete. You're leaving off depreciation and maintenance (ie, that transmission replacement will come much sooner). Your scenario will, in reality, cost you closer to $1800. Here is AAA's estimates for cost of ownership - the middle-of-the-road estimate being pretty close to the governments $0.58/mile.

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Your-Driving-Costs.pdf

And your tax benefit doesn't exist to the degree stated (I once made the same mistaken assumption) - as others on this thread have pointed out, you can only deduct up to the income made from the ride-share income. Sorry, no tax-break.

These lower numbers conspire to bring your meager earning to - wait for it - $220 annually. Or $18.33/mo. Sweet.

This is a perfect college student job (if they have a somewhat decent car) for 10 hours a week at weird times between classes for spending money

To the college student who is typically blissfully unaware of the true finances of car ownership, is looks like a "perfect college student job." And that's exactly what keeps Lyft & Uber in business. I have a high-schooler and a college freshman who have both expressed interest in driving since I started. I expressly forbade it because - as I have said - they are not making money, they are extracting money from the cars mommy and daddy have provided.
 
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