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Seeo looks interesting but I see major red flags when they talk about their superior energy density without using any numbers. I've had enough bad experiences with battery companies, (ALTI, A123, ZBB), so I'm inclined to stay away.

Found some numbers in a PDF: http://www.smartgrid.gov/sites/default/files/seeo-oe0000223-final.pdf
Seeo’s cell design couples a solid lithium metal anode with a conventional porous lithium iron phosphate cathode yielding a pouch cell energy density of 235 Wh/kg and 410 Wh/l

So not as good as what Tesla is using from Panasonic, unless it needs less management, which it may not if the claims are true, then pack level could actually end up a bit higher. The safety factor is potentially important, if accurate.
Also that data is three years out of date so actual number may have improved since then.
 
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OK guys, all year we have discussed PV manufacturers and have played/invested in them. Time has come to start discussing Energy Storage in more detail to go hand in hand. I am trying to narrow down a top 5 to 10 list of companies which we should consider. 2014 is supposed to be a high growth year and we should start focusing on profitable companies that are already public or will IPO in the near future. Tesla will likely stay invloved in the industry but looking for pure players. Here is an article from Greentech.

Research: 5 Companies Positioned to Succeed in Grid-Scale Energy Storage : Greentech Media

I started researching this this week to offer them to our current customers and as an upgrade option to new customers. I didn't really find anything in my initial search that I liked, though I only got about an hour into my research before a higher priority came up.
 
I started researching this this week to offer them to our current customers and as an upgrade option to new customers. I didn't really find anything in my initial search that I liked, though I only got about an hour into my research before a higher priority came up.

I guess, similar to Solar (CSIQ), Energy Storage also has "Energy Storage Solution Systems" as a service.. for example AES does not make the batteries, but integrates them for customers, kinda like Tesla is beginning to do jointly with Solar City. I was doing some research on AES. They are expected to see decent growth, and the stock is cheap to reasonably priced, and the company is still smallish. They do have significant debt from what I can see, but very heavily institutionally owned-83%. Need to research them more.
 
Neither AES nor ABB is even close to a "pure play" energy storage company. ABB is an industrial/electrical supply giant, and AES primarily owns utility and generation assets.

Thanks. I might be tempted to increase my humble investment in ABB, or at least not sell off for a while.

It seems to my simpleton analysis, ABB accidentally bought into a mess of old U.S. asbestos-plagued plants and ended up carrying the can. But other than that, it has a pretty good rep here in Sweden (the home of the Asea half) for honesty and good work over a century. Doubt the Swiss half would tar that. Perhaps the opposite even. ABB has become truly international.
 
ABB bought Power One, which makes great inverters (I am getting those inverters with my SunPower panels installed soon), but the inverter margins are about to get squeezed by an onslaught of cheap competition from Chinese competitors. Therefore, you are getting the good with the bad (quite honestly I don't know much about ABB and whether it is a good investment). But the inverter market is not a good investment right now and I fear for companies like Power One or SMA.

As far as battery storage goes, I think it would be a great investment if there were pure play battery storage companies that are about to take off. I still think that TSLA is the best play in battery storage right now.

Anybody know whose batteries SPWR started testing right now in California, Australia, etc.?
 
Very positive/mixed IHS predictions for solar in 2014:

IMS Research - Top 10 Solar Market Predictions for 2014


Top 10 Solar Market Predictions for 2014
Date: 19 December 2013
This is an IHS News Flash covering the top predictions for the global photovoltaic (PV) market in 2014, from a new white paper issued by the IHS Solar service at information and analytics provider IHS (NYSE: IHS).
“After two years of a punishing downturn, the global solar industry is on the rebound,” said Ash Sharma, senior research director for solar at IHS. “Worldwide PV installations are set to rise by double digits in 2014, solar manufacturing capital spending is recovering, module prices are stabilizing and emerging markets are on the rise. However, challenges remain, including changes in government incentives and policy, an on-going backlash to the rapid rise of renewables and razor-thin margins throughout the solar value chain.”
Below are the top predictions for 2014 from the IHS solar research team.
Double-Digit Growth Yet Again in 2014 as PV Installations Top 40 GW
Despite multiple risks, IHS remains bullish about the development of the PV market in 2014 and firmly believes that global installations will be in the range of 40 to 45 gigawatts (GW), based on a bottom-up analysis of more than 100 countries. Against a backdrop of reduced support and incentives in major European markets, a still-fragile global economy and major trade disputes rocking the industry, the projected level for next year is a remarkable achievement for an industry that just four years ago installed less than half this amount.
PV Energy Storage Moves Beyond Hype in 2014
With the cost of solar energy plunging, demand for PV energy storage systems (PVESS) is booming, with installations set to quadruple in 2014. Worldwide installations of PVESS in 2014 will amount to 753 megawatts (MW), up from 192 MW in 2013. Strong growth will be generated by all three major segments of the market—i.e., residential, commercial and utility-scale PVESS. The largest growth will be in the commercial sector, driven by demand for intelligent electricity-consumption systems in buildings.
PV Module ASP Declines to Keep Margins Slim in 2014
Persisting manufacturing overcapacity for PV modules will result in a 10 percent decline in average selling prices (ASPs) in 2014, prohibiting any further increase in profit margins for suppliers during the year.
2014 to Trigger Technology Upgrades and Return of Capital Spending
IHS predicts global capital spending in 2014 by producers of PV ingots, wafers, cells, modules and polysilicon will rise by a robust 42 percent to reach $3.3 billion. With demand shifting away from the developed solar regions of the United States, the European Union and China, PV manufacturers are gaining interest in running operations in emerging markets, a phenomenon expected to result in new factory openings and boosting local capital spending in areas such as the Middle East, South America and parts of Africa.
Latin America to Install More Than 1 GW of PV Capacity in 2014
In 2014 Latin America will surpass a new milestone in the deployment of PV. IHS forecasts that installations in the region will soar to 1.4 GW in 2014, up from 300 MW in 2013. The majority of additions will take place in Chile and Mexico, countries without any conventional subsidies for PV.
U.S. Net-Energy Metering Debate Continues in 2014
In mid-2013, net-energy metering (NEM) became one of the most contentious issues in the U.S. solar PV industry. However, while states including Arizona, Colorado and California are re-evaluating their NEM policies, the impact of any potential changes on the U.S. distributed PV industry is expected to be negligible in 2014.
Asian PV Inverter Suppliers to Advance in 2014
The rise of solar markets in Japan and China is spurring the rapid growth of the PV inverter business in those countries, boosting market share for domestic suppliers in 2013. Four of the world’s Top 10 inverter suppliers during the first nine months of 2013 were from China or Japan when ranked on a revenue basis, up from two in 2012. As Chinese and Japanese suppliers start to expand their international presence, IHS predicts that those that survive the intense competition will be well-placed to increase their global market share.
China Unlikely to Reach Ambitious Distributed Solar Target in 2014
In November, China’s National Energy Administration (NEA)—a subsidiary of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC)—announced huge plans for 12 GW of PV projects in 2014. These consist of 8 GW of distributed PV and 4 GW of ground-mount systems. While the announcement is hugely encouraging for both the Chinese and global PV industry, IHS firmly believes that such an ambitious target for distributed PV installations is not achievable, and the reality is that actual totals will fall far short of this goal.
PV Module Prices Will Continue to Decline Over the Long Term
One solar industry thought leader is positing the theory that PV module prices should stabilize or even increase during the period from 2013 to 2017. IHS begs to disagree. In its own investigation of market pricing trends and price correlation of innovation and learning effects, IHS has concluded that PV module prices will not remain flat in the coming years. Rather, IHS believes that cost and price will decline by more than 40 percent in 2020 compared to 2013.
Unsubsidized PV Market to Take Off in 2014
High electricity prices and the falling cost of PV will allow 700 MW of unsubsidized PV to be developed worldwide in 2014, especially in regions with high irradiation and intense electricity demand.
Historically the PV market has been driven exclusively by government subsidies, including feed-in tariffs (FITs), tax credits and tender schemes. In recent years, these subsidies have been scaled back as PV installations have grown rapidly, because lower system cost has made the original schemes very attractive and also costly to support for 20 years or more.



I would completely dismiss anything that IHS has to say and recommend doing your own research on the solar industry. IHS is the same company that said that Tesla will produce 3,000 Model S in total. This was a big reason why suppliers did not ramp up production, since they did not believe that Tesla would achieve 20,000 units in 2013.

"PV Module ASP Declines to Keep Margins Slim in 2014
Persisting manufacturing overcapacity for PV modules will result in a 10 percent decline in average selling prices (ASPs) in 2014, prohibiting any further increase in profit margins for suppliers during the year."

This might be the dumbest thing I have heard on the solar industry. With growing demand in 2013, ASP's have finally started stabilizing and even increasing. Virtually all of the module suppliers are operating at a loss and a lot of smaller players are going out of business every week because they cannot compete. If module prices go down another 10%, while poly and wafer prices stabilize or increase (as many industry experts are expecting) then all of the solar companies might as well just close down shop and call it quits. All of these companies have been running at a loss for over two years, and they cannot do it for much longer without going bankrupt. 2013 has so far proven this trend as module prices have actually been going up.

Module prices will come down over the long haul, because of advances in technology, but it will take investment in new equipment as well as new more efficient poly plants to come on line. 2014 is the year where the module producers finally turn profits. I can agree that module prices will come down for some players outside of China, but almost all of the modules are coming out of China, and Chinese panels cannot get much cheaper in 2014 without putting everyone out of business.

In 2014, I see module prices stable and then start declining in 2015 as new more efficient poly plants come on line and the module manufacturers' 2014 investment in new equipment starts feeding into cheaper COGS, which allows them to sell modules cheaper but still at a profit.

We are in a whole new era of the solar industry. Everybody believes that the industry is doomed for losses so there is no new entrants into the industry. This will lead to a short-term panel shortage and increase in module prices in 2014. By then the established players will start investing in new equipment to be able to produce at competitive rates that will prevent new entrants from competing solely on price.

The most important factor is that we might see a poly shortage if demand picks up significantly, which will further prevent new entrants since they will not be able to get the raw materials to build panels.

I am very optimistic on the industry in 2014. I see 2014 as the turning point and a lot of these companies will start earning some nice profits that they will reinvest to stay competitive and expand market share. Leaders will continue winning, and the losers will slowly go out of business. Consolidation in the industry will continue and there will be a dozen or so big players left in a couple of years.
 
I would completely dismiss anything that IHS has to say and recommend doing your own research on the solar industry. IHS is the same company that said that Tesla will produce 3,000 Model S in total. This was a big reason why suppliers did not ramp up production, since they did not believe that Tesla would achieve 20,000 units in 2013.

"PV Module ASP Declines to Keep Margins Slim in 2014
Persisting manufacturing overcapacity for PV modules will result in a 10 percent decline in average selling prices (ASPs) in 2014, prohibiting any further increase in profit margins for suppliers during the year."

This might be the dumbest thing I have heard on the solar industry. With growing demand in 2013, ASP's have finally started stabilizing and even increasing. Virtually all of the module suppliers are operating at a loss and a lot of smaller players are going out of business every week because they cannot compete. If module prices go down another 10%, while poly and wafer prices stabilize or increase (as many industry experts are expecting) then all of the solar companies might as well just close down shop and call it quits. All of these companies have been running at a loss for over two years, and they cannot do it for much longer without going bankrupt. 2013 has so far proven this trend as module prices have actually been going up.

Module prices will come down over the long haul, because of advances in technology, but it will take investment in new equipment as well as new more efficient poly plants to come on line. 2014 is the year where the module producers finally turn profits. I can agree that module prices will come down for some players outside of China, but almost all of the modules are coming out of China, and Chinese panels cannot get much cheaper in 2014 without putting everyone out of business.

In 2014, I see module prices stable and then start declining in 2015 as new more efficient poly plants come on line and the module manufacturers' 2014 investment in new equipment starts feeding into cheaper COGS, which allows them to sell modules cheaper but still at a profit.

We are in a whole new era of the solar industry. Everybody believes that the industry is doomed for losses so there is no new entrants into the industry. This will lead to a short-term panel shortage and increase in module prices in 2014. By then the established players will start investing in new equipment to be able to produce at competitive rates that will prevent new entrants from competing solely on price.

The most important factor is that we might see a poly shortage if demand picks up significantly, which will further prevent new entrants since they will not be able to get the raw materials to build panels.

I am very optimistic on the industry in 2014. I see 2014 as the turning point and a lot of these companies will start earning some nice profits that they will reinvest to stay competitive and expand market share. Leaders will continue winning, and the losers will slowly go out of business. Consolidation in the industry will continue and there will be a dozen or so big players left in a couple of years.

Sleepy,

Thank you for your take on this. I was not familiar with IHS. I certainly prefer your opinion on the situation, it fits better with my investments.

Gene
 
FWIW, IHS is a huge consulting conglomerate. The automotive team is completely separate from the energy people. I know some of the emerging energy people, who are both nice and intelligent, but that doesn't mean their perspectives should be the basis for anyone's investment. By the same token, Sleepyhead's research shouldn't be the basis for your investment -- YOUR research should be the basis (a point Sleepyhead has made several times over).
 
FWIW, IHS is a huge consulting conglomerate. The automotive team is completely separate from the energy people. I know some of the emerging energy people, who are both nice and intelligent, but that doesn't mean their perspectives should be the basis for anyone's investment. By the same token, Sleepyhead's research shouldn't be the basis for your investment -- YOUR research should be the basis (a point Sleepyhead has made several times over).

Yes, please don't use my research as a basis for investment either. I have been going against the grain of these big (and small) research companies for a year and a half now and it has been working really well.

Here is a good balanced article on solar from Energy Trend:

http://pv.energytrend.com/research/20131223-5964.html

If I believed what all these guys wrote in 2012 about the industry, I would have never invested: Solar Demand will reach ~31 GW in 2013, while supply is around 60 GW - 80 GW. If this was true then the industry would have been doomed. Now demand projections are for 35 GW-37 GW, but if there truly was 70 GW of capacity then the industry would be screwed anyway.

Now I have read from both DB and Energy trend that 45GW of demand in 2014 will lead to a poly/wafer shortage. If this happens then poly/wafer prices will go up, but more importantly it will mean that there is a panel shortage as well.

If there is a panel shortage then there will not be lower prices next year, until new poly plants come on line in 2015 (it takes time to build these out), or worse moth-balled plants will come on line if the price of poly goes too high. In this case panel prices will have to go up as well or everyone loses money on the panel side.

At the same time capacity is going down, since small manufacturers are going out of business and their equipment is too old to be competitive.

Demand increasing + Supply decreasing + higher raw material costs = 10% lower panel prices

Just think how ridiculous that sounds...

I don't see any scenario where panel prices fall 10% in 2014. It will happen for those that are not competitively priced, such as EU modules or SPWR (SPWR is expensive for a reason but they can easily lower costs by 10% with efficiency improvements while keeping margins steady), etc. due to cost reductions. But the Chinese own 2/3 of the market, and I don't see their panels going down 10% in 2014. Otherwise, I would not be investing in these companies. JA solare for example predicted that it will lower manufacturing costs by 3%-4% in 2014, and at the same time it is expanding capacity. If panel prices were to fall 10% then this strategy wouldn't make any sense.

SOL panels have gone from 0.61 to 0.63 to 0.66 in the last couple of quarters and they said they expect 0.70 in 2014.

Panel prices are not the issue in the US anyway. The other soft costs are way too high when compared to Germany.

I am sure that the IHS research is very valuable, but it is just one company's opinion. I encourage everyone to do their own research and come up with your own conclusions. Do not rely on these experts to tell you how to invest in solar or elsewhere. There is still a lot of money to be made in this industry and these guys will not show you where to look. You have to find that on your own.

If you believe everything that you read about the solar industry then you will never invest in the industry. If I believed everything I read over the past year in a half, I would have never invested either and missed the great run in 2013.
 
This article in NYT discusses the increasing solar panel energy generation in California and the consequent grid demand fluctuation at sunset. As a response, California Public Utilities Commission mandated energy storage as an attempt aimed at coping with rapid changes in supply and demand. "At the end of October, the commission ordered the utility companies it regulates to install some form of energy storage equipment — exactly what was not specified — in the first mandate of its kind in the country."

This initiative might have an impact on demand for Tesla batteries.

Here is the link again as for some reason the above link does not work.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/b...ornia-and-storing-them.html?ref=business&_r=0
 

From a comment on that article:

The good news here is that Hawaiian Electric Co. is creating a vast pool of consumers with huge financial and personal incentives to go off grid. At a price to beat of $0.32/kWh (more than three times the US average!), HECOs customer base is ripe for the picking. With nearly a million customers so motivated to become early adopters, the price and quality of off-grid systems will soon be enjoyed by us all at the expense of HECOs long-term profitability!
 
This article in NYT discusses the increasing solar panel energy generation in California and the consequent grid demand fluctuation at sunset. As a response, California Public Utilities Commission mandated energy storage as an attempt aimed at coping with rapid changes in supply and demand. "At the end of October, the commission ordered the utility companies it regulates to install some form of energy storage equipment — exactly what was not specified — in the first mandate of its kind in the country."

This initiative might have an impact on demand for Tesla batteries.

Here is the link again as for some reason the above link does not work.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/b...ornia-and-storing-them.html?ref=business&_r=0

Just reading your comment here, that request doesn't make sense in my mind because solar is not a digital on/off switch and suddenly at sunset 1GW of power leaves the grid. It's a beautiful bell curve with the peak at solar noon + or - an hour or so because the orientation was shifted for financial or shading issues.

I agree that solar storage is a must, but it isn't creating instability in the grid. Look at Germany, they have hit times where over 50% of all their power on the grid is from solar. CA isn't anywhere near that.
 
I read this Hawaii article few weeks back. My mom actually sent it to me and I was not sure what to make of it other than utilities squirming trying to hang on to their profits.

On another note, what do you guys make of the flat stock pattern for Solar over the past month? At this rate we likely won't see any notable move up until February when earnings season start again it would seem.


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Fresh off the print and warm from the sun. 49 GW in 2014! Meaning likely well over 50 GW.

Strong Growth Forecast for Solar PV Industry in 2014 with Demand Reaching 49 GW, According to NPD Solarbuzz | Solarbuzz
 
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Just reading your comment here, that request doesn't make sense in my mind because solar is not a digital on/off switch and suddenly at sunset 1GW of power leaves the grid. It's a beautiful bell curve with the peak at solar noon + or - an hour or so because the orientation was shifted for financial or shading issues.

I agree that solar storage is a must, but it isn't creating instability in the grid. Look at Germany, they have hit times where over 50% of all their power on the grid is from solar. CA isn't anywhere near that.
One serious challenge is almost unique to California: the population runs along a coast that matches, almost perfectly, the sunset. Although LA is a good bit east of SF, take a look at the time of sunset -- it's nearly the same. With such a large fraction of the roof-top solar sites acting almost as though they were in the same location, increasing solar penetration in CA raises serious issues for grid operators. Fossil-fired generators have a maximum "ramp rate" that limits how quickly they can increase generation. California's power system is increasingly becoming "ramp constrained", forcing the operator to have a lot of generators on line at partial loading to be able to ramp quickly enough to offset the loss of renewables.
 
One serious challenge is almost unique to California: the population runs along a coast that matches, almost perfectly, the sunset. Although LA is a good bit east of SF, take a look at the time of sunset -- it's nearly the same. With such a large fraction of the roof-top solar sites acting almost as though they were in the same location, increasing solar penetration in CA raises serious issues for grid operators. Fossil-fired generators have a maximum "ramp rate" that limits how quickly they can increase generation. California's power system is increasingly becoming "ramp constrained", forcing the operator to have a lot of generators on line at partial loading to be able to ramp quickly enough to offset the loss of renewables.

It still doesn't matter because the taper is gentle. Here is the output from my ground mount system with a perfect afternoon. It tapers off gently at the end of every day. The am was probably foggy or partly cloudy.
7asa9e4y.jpg


Even if all of the systems were dual tracking systems the taper is still gentle because the sun is always most powerful at solar noon.

Solar also nicely matches demand because there is such a huge cooling load in buildings. In the evening that load tapers off because of the sun setting and also people leaving work so offices tend to use less energy and industries that run single shifts are also turning off equipment lessening the grid load.

Either way I still don't buy it, there was a pretty extensive research paper published a year or two ago about this topic. I'll see if I can dig it up