Can I upgrade this 15a 120v outlet with a GFCI/AFCI combo outlet?

[Byce007]

My goal is just to charge on the stock nema 5-15 that comes with the mobile charger since my charging needs are pretty low based on my commute. I just want to update the sketchy looking plug in the second picture with a GFCI/AFCI combo outlet and want to make sure that would be ok.

So here is the setup in the garage that came with the house:

Main panel 30amp breaker feeding this box in the garage with 12 gauge wire (pretty sure it’s 12 since it has 12 tw 600v label on it).

This box is supplying the outlet I want to update to GFCI/AFCI. From the box, it’s the blue and white wire that is going up and is supplied by the 20amp breaker on the right. I know it doesn’t have a ground, but the garage box looks like it’s grounded - is that ok?

The only other thing plugged on this circuit is my garage door opener that is supplying two lights totaling 80watts.

Overall, this set up is confusing and I just want to make sure I can plug in the 5-15 without any issues.

 

[Sophias_dad]

What's the red wire going downwards out of the outlet box?

If that really is 12 gauge feeding your garage panel, its potentially overloaded if it actually moves 30A.

The outlet is probably getting its ground from the conduit. That's okay some places. I'm not sure of the exact rules, especially with the flexible tube conduit.

What brand/model is that subpanel?

Yes, you should be able to install a GFCI outlet in place of your current outlet. I'd probably even make it a 20A outlet and get the 5-20 adapter for your UMC, for that extra charge rate, since you are doing the change anyway.

Just for the good of the world, I'd swap your garage lighting for LEDs. It'll also give you ~60W(30w times two bulbs) more capacity in the garage.

 

[Byce007]

What's the red wire going downwards out of the outlet box?

If that really is 12 gauge feeding your garage panel, its potentially overloaded if it actually moves 30A.

The outlet is probably getting its ground from the conduit. That's okay some places. I'm not sure of the exact rules, especially with the flexible tube conduit.

What brand/model is that subpanel?

Yes, you should be able to install a GFCI outlet in place of your current outlet. I'd probably even make it a 20A outlet and get the 5-20 adapter for your UMC, for that extra charge rate, since you are doing the change anyway.

Just for the good of the world, I'd swap your garage lighting for LEDs. It'll also give you ~60W(30w times two bulbs) more capacity in the garage.

Appreciate all the great feedback!

Here’s another angle of the red wire - it is daisy chaining a few other outlets and appears to be same gauge.

I know 12 gauge is feeding the outlets, but can’t tell for sure what gauge is feeding the garage panel. If I keep all outlets under 20
Amps it should be ok or I could change the breaker to 20 amps?

Here’s a pic of the subpanel - its Underwrites’ Laboratories?

Thanks for the suggestion on 5-20! I was thinking about that but since my garage opener and lights are on the same circuit, would that cause any issues?

I actually just updated the garage lighting to LEDs Hooked up four 20w lights to the opener vs two 100w bulbs. It looks completely different inside!

 

[Sophias_dad]

That's a Federal Pacific panel. Federal Pacific Breaker Panel Recall (2023 Update) would probably be a good thing to read, and you should also check your main panel since there's a decent chance it is also Federal Pacific.

I wouldn't hesitate to put in a 20 amp outlet instead of a 15. The GDO counts for almost nothing(its both low-draw and very short timeframe), and 80W of lighting isn't all that much.

I'd trust that you can safely draw 30 amps in that panel until you find you can't 12 gauge is rated to 25 amps at 75C, or 30 amps at 90C(Note that's for THHN-2 et al, so probably doesn't apply here!), but you aren't supposed to use the 90C rating unless both ends are also 90C rated. The subpanel might be, the feeding breaker almost definitely isn't. Worst case >should be< that you'll get a nuisance trip on the feeding breaker if you run that panel over 25A. I wouldn't bother changing the feeding breaker unless you are also changing the entire indoor and subpanel because they are Federal Pacific and might burn down your house.

 

[qdeathstar]

My goal is just to charge on the stock nema 5-15 that comes with the mobile charger since my charging needs are pretty low based on my commute. I just want to update the sketchy looking plug in the second picture with a GFCI/AFCI combo outlet and want to make sure that would be ok.

So here is the setup in the garage that came with the house:

Main panel 30amp breaker feeding this box in the garage with 12 gauge wire (pretty sure it’s 12 since it has 12 tw 600v label on it).

This box is supplying the outlet I want to update to GFCI/AFCI. From the box, it’s the blue and white wire that is going up and is supplied by the 20amp breaker on the right. I know it doesn’t have a ground, but the garage box looks like it’s grounded - is that ok?

The only other thing plugged on this circuit is my garage door opener that is supplying two lights totaling 80watts.

Overall, this set up is confusing and I just want to make sure I can plug in the 5-15 without any issues.

View attachment 926485View attachment 926486

You need to call an electrician.

 

[Cosmacelf]

You’ll be able to charge just fine with the 5-20 adapter. It draws 16A, leaving 4A or 480 Watts for other stuff.

 

[Tronguy]

Um. As regards that "United Laboratories": That's not the manufacturer, that's the regulating authority. As in, the "UL" that one sees on nearly every piece of electrical/electronic equipment in the U.S.. That's supposed to mean that it's "safe", for a given value of safe.

But the very worst part is the Federal Pacific label. I had a house circuit breaker panel with those words on it back in the late 1990's in New Jersey, about the time I was having a major kitchen renovation. The electrician I hired to the the electrical part of the reno happened to be my across-the-street neighbor who was, indeed, a Master Electrician. And we were doing this all with the proper permitting.

He took one look at that panel and it was immediately stated that it Had To Go. Not because it was relatively low amperage, but because it was flat-out blinking DANGEROUS. Here's a link: to a Duck-Duck-Go search. In most of New Jersey, if one has a breaker panel with "Federal Pacific" on it, one is not allowed to get a certificate of occupancy. That included the municipality I was living in. And the search tells one why: A couple of thousand homes burn down every year because of this gear. My understanding is that Federal breakers tend to fail, "Short", as in, they don't open up in an emergency.

OK, that Federal Pacific moniker was on the outlet, not the breaker. But if I were you, and you care about your loved ones potentially burning up in the dead of night, I'd take a very close look at any and all breaker panels anywhere around your hose and Find Out who made them.

Good luck!

 

[Byce007]

That's a Federal Pacific panel. Federal Pacific Breaker Panel Recall (2023 Update) would probably be a good thing to read, and you should also check your main panel since there's a decent chance it is also Federal Pacific.

I wouldn't hesitate to put in a 20 amp outlet instead of a 15. The GDO counts for almost nothing(its both low-draw and very short timeframe), and 80W of lighting isn't all that much.

I'd trust that you can safely draw 30 amps in that panel until you find you can't 12 gauge is rated to 25 amps at 75C, or 30 amps at 90C(Note that's for THHN-2 et al, so probably doesn't apply here!), but you aren't supposed to use the 90C rating unless both ends are also 90C rated. The subpanel might be, the feeding breaker almost definitely isn't. Worst case >should be< that you'll get a nuisance trip on the feeding breaker if you run that panel over 25A. I wouldn't bother changing the feeding breaker unless you are also changing the entire indoor and subpanel because they are Federal Pacific and might burn down your house.

Thanks for the Federal Pacific info! I had no idea! My main panel is General Electric. Does that make it less risky or should I replace the garage panel even if I charge on a GFCI/AFCI outlet?

Will def get a 5-20 outlet! Fortunately (and understandably) the adapter doesn't cost as much as the others

Good to know on the 12 gauge wire. I don’t intend to install any 30 amp outlets, but good to know I don’t need to replace the existing breakers or wiring. Thanks!

 

[Byce007]

Um. As regards that "United Laboratories": That's not the manufacturer, that's the regulating authority. As in, the "UL" that one sees on nearly every piece of electrical/electronic equipment in the U.S.. That's supposed to mean that it's "safe", for a given value of safe.

But the very worst part is the Federal Pacific label. I had a house circuit breaker panel with those words on it back in the late 1990's in New Jersey, about the time I was having a major kitchen renovation. The electrician I hired to the the electrical part of the reno happened to be my across-the-street neighbor who was, indeed, a Master Electrician. And we were doing this all with the proper permitting.

He took one look at that panel and it was immediately stated that it Had To Go. Not because it was relatively low amperage, but because it was flat-out blinking DANGEROUS. Here's a link: to a Duck-Duck-Go search. In most of New Jersey, if one has a breaker panel with "Federal Pacific" on it, one is not allowed to get a certificate of occupancy. That included the municipality I was living in. And the search tells one why: A couple of thousand homes burn down every year because of this gear. My understanding is that Federal breakers tend to fail, "Short", as in, they don't open up in an emergency.

OK, that Federal Pacific moniker was on the outlet, not the breaker. But if I were you, and you care about your loved ones potentially burning up in the dead of night, I'd take a very close look at any and all breaker panels anywhere around your hose and Find Out who made them.

Good luck!

Oof we bought the place about 10 years ago an kind of frustrated this didn’t come up during inspection if it was well known back then..

 

[jcanoe]

I would immediately replace the existing 5-15 receptacle (because it is obviously old) with a new commercial grade receptacle (either 5-15R or 5-20R.) You don't need to use a GFCI receptacle on an existing circuit for EV charging but this is now required for new EV charging circuit installations. New EV charging circuits must also be dedicated (no additional receptacles allowed.) So if you are trying to bring everything up to the present code you can't share the circuit with anything else.

After replacing the receptacle I would plug in the Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector with either 5-15 or 5-20 power plug adapter fitted to the Mobile Connector and leave it plugged in. Be sure to add a mounting bracket or other support for the Mobil Connector chassis so the weight of the Mobile Connector and charging cord does not pull on the power plug and receptacle.

The Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector has built in GFCI protection that protects the user while plugging and unplugging the Tesla charging connector from the Tesla vehicle's charge port. (Note: The NEC requirement for GFCI protection for the receptacle was added to protect the user when plugging or unplugging the charging equipment from the receptacle. This is a bigger risk with 240V circuits. The risk is eliminated by leaving the equipment plugged in, always first turning off the circuit breaker if you ever need to unplug the equipment for service.)

It appears that at some point, if you remain in this home, you will be replacing the existing Federal Pacific service panel and sub panel. That would be the time to install a new dedicated 240V 20A or greater charging circuit and the Tesla Wall Connector (hard wired, so there will be no power plug or receptacle.)

 

[Byce007]

Something like this would be a good replacement for the Federal Pacific subpanel?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-70-Amp-2-Spaces-4-Circuit-Main-Lug-Load-Center/1114571

 

[Cosmacelf]

Something like this would be a good replacement for the Federal Pacific subpanel?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-70-Amp-2-Spaces-4-Circuit-Main-Lug-Load-Center/1114571

Siemens EQ 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Main Lug Surface Mount Load Center E0204ML1060SU - The Home Depot

This 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Main Lug Load Center features an aluminum bus bar for excellent conductivity. It is designed for superb corrosion resistance thanks to a hot-dipped galvanized carbon steel

www.homedepot.com

Yes.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Something like this would be a good replacement for the Federal Pacific subpanel?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-70-Amp-2-Spaces-4-Circuit-Main-Lug-Load-Center/1114571

You’ll have to punch or drill two new conduit holes in the side at an appropriate spot. That’ll be the trickiest part of the install.