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Carbon Super Super Capacitor

Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by nleggatt, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. nleggatt

    nleggatt Member

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  2. patp

    patp Member

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    Yes and no! The beauty of Model S is that they can change the battery technology so car is "upgradable" in theory!

    I'm sure we'll see 500-600 miles battery pack sooner than later...
     
  3. nleggatt

    nleggatt Member

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    Ya that's what I told him too.
     
  4. EarlyAdopter

    EarlyAdopter Active Member

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    It's anticipation of future developments like this why I'm not buying the battery replacement option. I figure in 10 years if I still have the car and I want more range there's a chance I could buy an uber-super-duper-carbon-nanotube-superconducting 600 mile pack. Or a Mr Fusion. Nice thing is the motor will still be good.
     
  5. teslasguy

    teslasguy MSP P#1117

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  6. Laumb

    Laumb smrtass.

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    1500 miles Range and 15 minutes charge time would be perfect!
    Someone will complain, but i cant figure out what they would conplain about... Too long a distance? Too fast charge? Too much power output availible? Hmmm...


    Tapatalkin' from iTalatut...
     
  7. Martini

    Martini Member

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    Anybody remember EEstor? What is it, 12 years and counting and no product? Magic technologies are only ten years away, and always will be.
     
  8. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    So, let's talk about exactly how you would charge such a super-capacitor. If the goal is to charge our notional 90kWh super-capacitor up in 5 minutes, and there are 10% charging losses, then you need to pump power in at a rate of 1.2 MW. Ooof. And we think getting 120kW of power to run 2 SuperChargers is expensive!
     
  9. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Another Ooof would be to get rid of 120kW excess heat. Here is hoping that charging a supercapacitor comes with way less losses than batteries: moving electrons instead of ions.
     
  10. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Good point, but even lossless, you've got to push power in at a rate above 1 MW.
     
  11. Nh1

    Nh1 Member

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    What would be a reasonable rate to expect in the future? Is the superchargers' 120kW already pushing it? Assuming batteries/capacitors are not the issue.
    Sorry for going OT, just wondering.
     
  12. Jkam

    Jkam Member

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    I'm assuming super capacitors of a comparable power - say 85 kWh - would weigh way less than the equivalent amount of batteries. If the Model S is somewhere around 4,600 pounds, how much weight savings would super capacitors provide?

    Not only would that extend range, but it might cause a total redesign of the car.
     
  13. EarlyAdopter

    EarlyAdopter Active Member

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    Considering it costs $250,000 to build a Supercharger station and over a $1,000,000 to build a gas station I think there'd be plenty of cost headroom to bring in big power if desired. Yes, a direct medium feed from the power company costs a pretty penny, but so does installing underground storage tanks.
     
  14. XrstalLens

    XrstalLens Model S P1327 VIN P01867

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    Unfortunately, according to Wikipedia (which appears slightly out of date at the moment) current supercapacitors only have about 1/50th the energy capacity per kg as Li-Ion. The new graphene supercapacitor in this video could bring that up substantially, but I couldn't find any numbers that indicate its energy capacity per kg. It would have to be in the 100-250 Wh/kg range to compete with Li-Ion according to the article.
     
  15. EarlyAdopter

    EarlyAdopter Active Member

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    The UCLA folks claim to be able to achieve energy densities of 46Wh/kg with their graphene supercapacitors.

    Laser Scribing of Flexible Graphene-Based Supercapacitors with Ultrahigh Power and Energy Densities
    United States Patent Application 61/606,637 Filed March 5, 2012
    Inventors: Maher El-Kady, Veronica A. Strong, PhD, Richard Kaner

    High performance energy storage devices that combine the power performance of capacitors with the high energy density of batteries have been considered one of the holy grails of energy storage technology. Here, we used a standard LightScribe DVD drive to create flexible and graphene-based supercapacitors that exhibit both ultrahigh energy and power densities. The energy density of a packaged graphene supercapacitor can be up to 46 Wh/kg, a value that is approximately 10 times higher than state-of-the-art commercial supercapacitors (4-5 Wh/kg) and two times higher than that of a lead-acid battery. Additionally, our graphene supercapacitors are capable of delivering a power density of 100 kW/kg, which is about 10 times higher than commercial supercapacitors and 100 times higher than Li-ion batteries. Furthermore, the devices can be charged and discharged in the millisecond time scale (time constant), compared with several seconds to minutes for commercial supercapacitors and hours for batteries. Most strikingly, we demonstrate flexible, all solid-state supercapacitors whose performance is unaffected by extreme bending conditions. Since this remarkable performance has yet to be realized in commercial devices, these supercapacitors may be ideal for next generation flexible, portable electronics.
     
  16. auleo

    auleo Member

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  17. DrTaras

    DrTaras R254->R725->S1364-->X769

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    Ya, that's why I passed on buying the Roadster because the Model S battery technology was going to be better!
    That's why I passed on the Model S, because the X will be that much better!
    That's why I don't buy computers because the next computer in a few months will make this one obsolete!
    Ditto for cameras and home appliances!
    --Yours Truly, Ted Kaczynski :rolleyes:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Luddism
     
  18. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    Wouldn't the solution be to load up a supercapacitor at the supercharger station with 85kWh of energy and then when a Tesla Model S plugs in then the power is dumped from the charging station's supercapacitor into the car's supercapacitor?

    So almost like a "battery swap" where you don't do a physical swap you just swap the power in one supercapacitor into another.

    The charging station's supercapacitor has to be large enough to act as a buffer or cache so that if there are a lot of cars in a short amount of time they can all get a super super super fast charge.
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    And it should sound like the Death Star powering up when recharging after the Model S leaves.
     
  20. auleo

    auleo Member

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    this would be AWESOME! the thing is this super supercap seems to be decades away from becoming a commercial product. And even then with only 86Wh/kg it still no match for the MS's ~ 200Wh/kg Lithium-ion, witch by then will have allowed us a 100+kWh pack :wink:
     

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