Daily / Frequent Supercharging

[SoGA Fan Club]

Woo hoo!

I e-mailed Busy Bee in September of last year (2019) and asked about Tesla Superchargers at PCB. They were very congenial but coy about it.

I’m still skeptical, since it’s PCB. But this would be very exciting, because I test drove a Model Y today in Sandestin. And these PCB superchargers would be right on my daily commute!

Thanks everyone for the updates and photos.

Do you live in an apartment or something with no access to charge?

 

[bkp_duke]

Woo hoo!

I e-mailed Busy Bee in September of last year (2019) and asked about Tesla Superchargers at PCB. They were very congenial but coy about it.

I’m still skeptical, since it’s PCB. But this would be very exciting, because I test drove a Model Y today in Sandestin. And these PCB superchargers would be right on my daily commute!

Thanks everyone for the updates and photos.

Daily / frequent supercharging is the LAST thing you want to do if you have access to regular charging methods. Frequent supercharging will over time result in slow but steady battery degradation.

Friend of mine at Tesla says the engineers tell him the batteries when charged on 240V around 20A "will never fail". The cars they see the highest degradation in are the most frequent supercharged cars.

 

[Alley Oop]

I have garage and am installing 14-50 NEMA receptacle this week, preparing for Tesla purchase. I haven’t studied the issue closely enough yet to develop my best practices for this new local supercharger and home charging.

I appreciate the warning about supercharger use causing battery degradation.

But I have one request: show me the data.

 

[Denny_Camp]

I have garage and am installing 14-50 NEMA receptacle this week, preparing for Tesla purchase. I haven’t studied the issue closely enough yet to develop my best practices for this new local supercharger and home charging.

I appreciate the warning about supercharger use causing battery degradation.

But I have one request: show me the data.

Great request for data, but it will probably go unanswered. Almost everything you see out there is an opinion. All I know is the tweet sent out by Elon saying charging to 90% is good for the battery. But even given that, you will find plenty of comments to never charge above 80%. Go figure. The only consistent info I have found is don’t leave the car at 100% or below 10%.

Charge it however you want to and don’t stress.

 

[bkp_duke]

Great request for data, but it will probably go unanswered. Almost everything you see out there is an opinion. All I know is the tweet sent out by Elon saying charging to 90% is good for the battery. But even given that, you will find plenty of comments to never charge above 80%. Go figure. The only consistent info I have found is don’t leave the car at 100% or below 10%.

Charge it however you want to and don’t stress.

Ha. I NEVER make unsubstantiated claims. Let's just say my Tesla contact is someone that "sees Elon" daily. Not some production line worker.

Repeated supercharging is degrading enough to batteries that in the worst-affected cars, Tesla does put speed limitation on place once you pass a certain number of faster charging cycles (either on Tesla superchargers, or on 3rd party cargers using a Chademo adapter):

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges - Electrek

Note in that article, there is a direct quote from Tesla Service Center:
"According to Tesla engineers, once vehicle has been DC fast charged over a specified amount, the battery management system restricts DC charging to prevent degradation of the battery pack."

Just go talk to pretty much any owner of an 85 or 90 kwh pack Model S, and they will tell you that software updates in the past year have cut their charging rates substantially, and the reason that finally came out is that it is to protect the battery packs.

It NOT JUST the ABSOLUTE PERCENT on the battery (i.e. charging to 100% or driving to 0% is bad for the pack), but it is the RATE at which you get to those numbers (i.e. FASTER charging causes more degradation, and in the extremes more launches in the high-end cars like the P100D cause faster degradation). Heck, on the P100D and P3D there are warnings in the controls that tell you the more you use Launch Mode and Track Mode, respectively, the faster you can expect degradation of both the battery and the motors.


Slower charging is better, period. These are governed by the laws of physics (heat dissipation primarily), not someones "feelings".

 

[Denny_Camp]

Ha. I NEVER make unsubstantiated claims. Let's just say my Tesla contact is someone that "sees Elon" daily. Not some production line worker.

Repeated supercharging is degrading enough to batteries that in the worst-affected cars, Tesla does put speed limitation on place once you pass a certain number of faster charging cycles (either on Tesla superchargers, or on 3rd party cargers using a Chademo adapter):

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges - Electrek

Note in that article, there is a direct quote from Tesla Service Center:
"According to Tesla engineers, once vehicle has been DC fast charged over a specified amount, the battery management system restricts DC charging to prevent degradation of the battery pack."

Just go talk to pretty much any owner of an 85 or 90 kwh pack Model S, and they will tell you that software updates in the past year have cut their charging rates substantially, and the reason that finally came out is that it is to protect the battery packs.

It NOT JUST the ABSOLUTE PERCENT on the battery (i.e. charging to 100% or driving to 0% is bad for the pack), but it is the RATE at which you get to those numbers (i.e. FASTER charging causes more degradation, and in the extremes more launches in the high-end cars like the P100D cause faster degradation). Heck, on the P100D and P3D there are warnings in the controls that tell you the more you use Launch Mode and Track Mode, respectively, the faster you can expect degradation of both the battery and the motors.


Slower charging is better, period. These are governed by the laws of physics (heat dissipation primarily), not someones "feelings".

Thanks for the additional comments, but again, where is the data? The article referenced is over 3 years old and based on batteries that are older than that and not installed in Model 3 or Y’s. The power transfer from Launch and track modes are not comparable with supercharging. Many, many times the amps compared to the amps when supercharging. Supercharging regulates the charge and monitors the battery temperature in order to protect the battery.

All I’m saying is there a ton of opinions and stories, but very limited data, as Tesla does not release the data. Charging is something that should not be a stress.

 

[bkp_duke]

Thanks for the additional comments, but again, where is the data? The article referenced is over 3 years old and based on batteries that are older than that and not installed in Model 3 or Y’s. The power transfer from Launch and track modes are not comparable with supercharging. Many, many times the amps compared to the amps when supercharging. Supercharging regulates the charge and monitors the battery temperature in order to protect the battery.

All I’m saying is there a ton of opinions and stories, but very limited data, as Tesla does not release the data. Charging is something that should not be a stress.

Peer-reviewed scientific article that aggregates the state of the art in Li-Ion battery charging and the impact of fast charging on battery life:
Lithium-ion battery fast charging: A review - ScienceDirect (complete with 287 references to the source material). This is a FAR DEEPER dive than the lay man will want to go through, but since you threw the gauntlet down, I'll pick it up and run with it.


In a nutshell, charging (at up to 250 kw/h) is VERY much a stress on the packs and DOES reduce both their capacity and lifetimes.

You also CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about when it comes to Launch and Track modes. Both of those with continued usage can pull power about as fast as a supercharger can put it in. Don't believe me, just go do hard launches and look at your energy meter. I've pegged mine out at over 1000 wh/mile for an hour or more during track sessions. The P3D handles things better than the S, but even with that I have managed to push the car into battery limp mode from the aggressive tracking.


But hey, it's your car, I don't give a flying @#$% if you want to degrade it faster with un-necessary supercharging. I always get a laugh watching the S/X crowd that will buy a 70k car but want to get every possible use of their "free supercharging" and will sit for an hour at a supercharger to get $12 of electricity, while wasting an hour of their time and putting un-necessary stress on the most expensive component of the car. You buying a replacement sooner will only help my TSLA share price. Just stop preaching that supercharging doesn't degrade battery performance and longevity, because that is a flat out lie.

 

[Denny_Camp]

Peer-reviewed scientific article that aggregates the state of the art in Li-Ion battery charging and the impact of fast charging on battery life:
Lithium-ion battery fast charging: A review - ScienceDirect (complete with 287 references to the source material). This is a FAR DEEPER dive than the lay man will want to go through, but since you threw the gauntlet down, I'll pick it up and run with it.


In a nutshell, charging (at up to 250 kw/h) is VERY much a stress on the packs and DOES reduce both their capacity and lifetimes.

You also CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about when it comes to Launch and Track modes. Both of those with continued usage can pull power about as fast as a supercharger can put it in. Don't believe me, just go do hard launches and look at your energy meter. I've pegged mine out at over 1000 wh/mile for an hour or more during track sessions. The P3D handles things better than the S, but even with that I have managed to push the car into battery limp mode from the aggressive tracking.


But hey, it's your car, I don't give a flying @#$% if you want to degrade it faster with un-necessary supercharging. I always get a laugh watching the S/X crowd that will buy a 70k car but want to get every possible use of their "free supercharging" and will sit for an hour at a supercharger to get $12 of electricity, while wasting an hour of their time and putting un-necessary stress on the most expensive component of the car. You buying a replacement sooner will only help my TSLA share price. Just stop preaching that supercharging doesn't degrade battery performance and longevity, because that is a flat out lie.

It’s cool. I did not mean to start anything like this. I never “preached” that supercharging doesn’t degrade battery performance or longevity, I simply said that one should not stress over it.

 

[Alley Oop]

Tesla does put speed limitation on place once you pass a certain number of faster charging cycles (either on Tesla superchargers, or on 3rd party cargers using a Chademo adapter):

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges - Electrek
.

Thanks for the data. I read the Electrek article and the first few pages of the Science Direct article (I have access to the full text). I appreciate the caution and follow-up info, which will inform my charging practice.

My takeaways are that 1) Li-Ion batteries can suffer degradation with high charge rates, so I will limit my supercharger use and us overnight home charge as my principal charging method; and 2) Tesla software works to limit charging rate before degradation occurs. So I don’t have to really worry so much about degradation but will limit Supercharger use so that when I really need fast charging—e.g., running from a hurricane—I can be guaranteed the fastest charging rate.

Again thanks for lookin’ out for a brother.

 

[Cgoral42]

Thanks for the data. I read the Electrek article and the first few pages of the Science Direct article (I have access to the full text). I appreciate the caution and follow-up info, which will inform my charging practice.

My takeaways are that 1) Li-Ion batteries can suffer degradation with high charge rates, so I will limit my supercharger use and us overnight home charge as my principal charging method; and 2) Tesla software works to limit charging rate before degradation occurs. So I don’t have to really worry so much about degradation but will limit Supercharger use so that when I really need fast charging—e.g., running from a hurricane—I can be guaranteed the fastest charging rate.

Again thanks for lookin’ out for a brother.

I know that in the past Elon has cautioned against continuous Supercharger use, but there have also been multiple accounts from a company called Tesloop that has run hundreds of thousands of miles in their taxi service from LA to Vegas where they exclusively use Superchargers with low degradation over time. I think that service has been a boon to Tesla’s real world research on their battery longevity and has helped to shape their info of their own batteries.

Tales from a Tesla Model S with 450,000 miles: Battery life, durability, and more
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-quality-durability-on-display-in-450k-mile-car-still-going-strong

 

[bkp_duke]

I know that in the past Elon has cautioned against continuous Supercharger use, but there have also been multiple accounts from a company called Tesloop that has run hundreds of thousands of miles in their taxi service from LA to Vegas where they exclusively use Superchargers with low degradation over time. I think that service has been a boon to Tesla’s real world research on their battery longevity and has helped to shape their info of their own batteries.

Tales from a Tesla Model S with 450,000 miles: Battery life, durability, and more
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-quality-durability-on-display-in-450k-mile-car-still-going-strong

I've talked with the Tesloop guys a few times. They have a higher battery replacement rate than normal (for high mileage cars). They anecdotally attribute it to their supercharger usage.

They do provide nice data to Tesla for what could happen with the cars over the next few years.

 

[Alley Oop]

Can we take the general discussion elsewhere please?

I actually appreciated the question posed to me about my personal use of the PCB supercharger and battery degradation, as it ultimately served to inform my use of this supercharger, since I live and work here and pass it twice daily.

No problem with moving the posts, but I wanted to say that I viewed the moved posts as relevant to my future experience with the PCB Superchargers.

I appreciate your patience with the information that may not have been of interest to you, because if not for the question, I may have remained ignorant, misused my local (PCB) charger, and potentially reduced my battery’s future charging rate. We’re STILL recovering from a CAT 5 hurricane (physically, socially, and mentally), so I’m keen to use this new charger in the most effective way possible when I need it most.

My wife said she saw new charger equipment at the site today and that it seemed to her they were installing “a lot” of them.

Now can someone tell me what Guthrie’s is? (Sign on the Busy Bee building.) Edit: nevermind, it seems just like those Zaxby restaurants (pass). Maybe BB will have something healthy to snack on while you wait.

 

[XLR82XS]

Maybe the new cells (Maxwell?) coming down the pipeline in the future will be the "cats meow" and have the ability of rapid discharge and charging with much less degradation.

Once my Teslas get old and have tons of mileage - I'll buy a new one. Just think where the battery technology will be in 7-10 years.

 

[Makulit]

There are mixed thoughts about the use and frequency of SC. Most people say to not drive your car to ~10% and not charge over 90%. I used to think that you should not use SC unless it's an emergency. After watching the video above and talking to people about it, I feel comfortable using SC.

Is there any evidence that frequent use of SC degrades the battery drastically?

 

[bkp_duke]

Is there any evidence that frequent use of SC degrades the battery drastically?

Daily / Frequent Supercharging

Read that post.

In the end, it is your car. None of us are going to care if you degrade the battery faster by supercharging.