Elon in Munich on Jan 30, 2014

[lorih]

Not sure this is the right place for this, but I wanted to summarize key points of Elon QA in Amsterdam. The Amsterdam thread isn't in English.

1) no announcement went straight to QA
2) affirmed expansion of Superchargers through EU
3) confirmed version 6 of software will be out very soon, and would not only give adjustable height back, but will have more options:
-user can define what speed to automatically lower
- lowering can be done manually as well as automatic
- more user control, more functionality
4) soon we will have ability to develop third party apps
5) no plans to have car put energy back to house, wants to do battery backup model similar to what Solar city does- separate battery backup at house
6) soon software will have true real time navigation based on info from other cars it will know road conditions and give real time nav
7) software will be smart enough that you won't have to plan supercharger routes, it will just alert you to Superchargers nearby while you are driving and make suggestions of when to stop and charge (can't remember if he gave time frame)
8)some issues in Norway and Belguim with charging in homes which are because of differences in local grid. Car is fine, but charging doesn't work. They have fix in testing (adapters) and will be rolled out in two weeks. Reaffirmed car is setup for universal charging, but different locals grid variances are leading to challenges in different locations (even US), and they are committed to addressing issues
9) no slacker in EU (slacker didn't have licensing rights). They have a different company partnership in EU, and that will be rolled out soon.
10) interested in working on adaptive cruise control, not sure if he said time frame for this
11) someone asked about paint quality needing improvement because forum here tells everyone to immediately go get car protected. He said he was not aware there were any issues with the paint. He said that was the first he heard about it and promised to look into this

i can't remember anything else, sure I missed something. Later I will post link to videos

 

[gelden]

And the Amsterdam session can be seen here Full talk on Livestream
Or here
Townmeeting @elonmusk Amsterdam 31 jan. Chadamo chargers,war - YouTube

 

[lorih]

Thanks geldon

 

[Doug_G]

Well, at the moment that is not on the menu-list. Currently, the Tesla Model S outperforms many other cars. Is AWD really that necessary?

Necessary for winter driving, not for performance.

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Necessary for winter driving, not for performance.

We just had some serious snowfall and the roads are mushy with varying levels of snow depth that changes every meter. While the car gets along and goes through the corners kind of ok it doesn't really feel as grounded. There's slipping and sliding and angling that happens in the process. Yes, it's mostly less than half a meter, but as it happens in various directions at random intervals it does make one far more cautious. The AWD is perfect for exactly these conditions because front wheels help guide the car in the proper direction while the rear ones make it go forward. Right now with no pull on the front wheels the car is effectively guided with rear ones as the front ones can't dig through the mush as they corner, they just have varying resistance levels.

Yes on powdery snow and dry compressed snow the car is perfect and there is no need for AWD, but on mushy and squishy varying snow conditions (and I assume mud the same way) the AWD is irreplaceable.

 

[riceuguy]

You all are burying the Lede... "Auto Pilot"?? He isn't seriously talking about self-driving cars, or something similar? (I didn't watch the video)

Check out the Tesla careers website...they are hiring autonomous driving engineers like crazy...

 

[Benz]

We just had some serious snowfall and the roads are mushy with varying levels of snow depth that changes every meter. While the car gets along and goes through the corners kind of ok it doesn't really feel as grounded. There's slipping and sliding and angling that happens in the process. Yes, it's mostly less than half a meter, but as it happens in various directions at random intervals it does make one far more cautious. The AWD is perfect for exactly these conditions because front wheels help guide the car in the proper direction while the rear ones make it go forward. Right now with no pull on the front wheels the car is effectively guided with rear ones as the front ones can't dig through the mush as they corner, they just have varying resistance levels.

Yes on powdery snow and dry compressed snow the car is perfect and there is no need for AWD, but on mushy and squishy varying snow conditions (and I assume mud the same way) the AWD is irreplaceable.

That is a good explanation.

Many people will buy a Tesla Model X.

 

[Doug_G]

We just had some serious snowfall and the roads are mushy with varying levels of snow depth that changes every meter. While the car gets along and goes through the corners kind of ok it doesn't really feel as grounded. There's slipping and sliding and angling that happens in the process. Yes, it's mostly less than half a meter, but as it happens in various directions at random intervals it does make one far more cautious. The AWD is perfect for exactly these conditions because front wheels help guide the car in the proper direction while the rear ones make it go forward. Right now with no pull on the front wheels the car is effectively guided with rear ones as the front ones can't dig through the mush as they corner, they just have varying resistance levels.

Yes on powdery snow and dry compressed snow the car is perfect and there is no need for AWD, but on mushy and squishy varying snow conditions (and I assume mud the same way) the AWD is irreplaceable.

Exactly right!

 

[WarpedOne]

Even plain FWD is better than RWD in such conditions.

 

[InTheShadows]

Even plain FWD is better than RWD in such conditions.

I personally do not agree with this since owning the Model S. It performs way better in the snow than our 2013 Golf in the snow.

 

[yobigd20]

I personally do not agree with this since owning the Model S. It performs way better in the snow than our 2013 Golf in the snow.

It's also performed much better in the snow that my AWD murano.

 

[Mario Kadastik]

And it has miles and miles to go to get to my previous Evo X Ok, Evo X is pretty much THE benchmark for AWD and snow performance so expecting any RWD drive car, even a Model S, to beat that would be a bit ludicrous. However I do have very high hopes for AWD Model S with the highly adaptive feedback and dual engine. Well it'll be out in a couple of years, a couple of revisions etc and by the time I end the lease of my Model S I might be able to swap for a AWD Model S '18

 

[InTheShadows]

Acceleration wise the x-drive 328i we traded would have beat the MS in the snow, handling and cornering though I know the MS would win. And I'm still running the Primacy's. Blizarks all the way around on the others.

 

[AlMc]

I personally do not agree with this since owning the Model S. It performs way better in the snow than our 2013 Golf in the snow.

I agree. I have been pleasantly surprised by how well the S does in snow versus some FWD cars I have owned. I also agree with MarioK that there are still times when an AWD S would come in handy.

 

[Sus]

Check out the Tesla careers website...they are hiring autonomous driving engineers like crazy...

Can you share a link?

 

[yobigd20]

Can you share a link?

Careers | Tesla Motors

 

[Doug_G]

It's also performed much better in the snow that my AWD murano.

I have so far owned 7 RWD vehicles (5 of which I have driven in winter), four 4WD/AWD vehicles, and 2 FWD. The AWD include a Nissan Murano. I would come to the opposite conclusion; all of the AWD/4WD vehicles are superior in extremely slippery conditions. I wouldn't even rate the Murano at the bottom of that category. (One additional data point... I'm currently sharing a rusty old Subaru Legacy for snowcross and ice racing - it wins as the best handling winter car I've ever driven. I doubt it's that great in summer, but it's absolutely awesome on snow and ice.)

AWD/4WD and FWD vehicles share the ability to steer the driving wheels. This is useful for pulling the nose in the direction you want to go, which is extremely important when you're stuck or nearly stuck. In those conditions, the Model S is just like every other RWD vehicle - instead of moving the car forwards, the back steps out sideways.

FWD isn't bad in most cases but AWD is clearly superior.

As for the RWD vehicles I've owned, hands down the best two in snow are the Tesla Roadster and the Tesla Model S. The Model S is pretty stable in snow, but in extremely slippery conditions (e.g. late last night) I would prefer an AWD vehicle.

The Model X sounds nice, but I prefer the better handling of a sedan, the better range of the Model S, and, frankly I don't need an even bigger vehicle.

This is why I would love to have an AWD Model S. Given the other characteristics of the electric drive train I wouldn't be surprised if it displaced the Subaru as the best handling winter car.

 

[AWDtsla]

Well, you said it yourself: this is so so so wrong.

We aren't going to see 500-1,000 mile battery packs, it just won't happen, except possibly in an extremely-niche vehicle, but I even doubt that. Check back in 10 years if you like. Packs that size would be ridiculous

7% average improvement per year on a 300 mile pack would mean a 590 mile pack of the same size and weight in 10 years. Elon has said the average number is actually higher than this. Why do assume a static universe? Same disease people have when they think electric cars and solar power can't work.

I would put money on it. And the reason I would put money on it is because Elon and JB have both said it, many times. As have many others.

Elon already said they could deliver a 500 mile pack TODAY, but decided to keep the cost/price under control for the Model S. Elon has also said more capacity will come, and not that far into the future.

And if the person you're talking about, who drives 150mph on the autobahn with a ski rack in 0F and for some reason doesn't know about the supercharger network doesn't like it, he can get something else.

Good job at evangelism here. Sarcasm detectors to full power.

There's no way the "average" EV is going to give itself a battery pack which is 500% bigger, heavier and more expensive than a reasonable pack just to cover the .001% of drives you're talking about here.

Refer back to my first answer. You've missed it entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm currently sharing a rusty old Subaru Legacy for snowcross and ice racing - it wins as the best handling winter car I've ever driven. I doubt it's that great in summer, but it's absolutely awesome on snow and ice.)

...

This is why I would love to have an AWD Model S. Given the other characteristics of the electric drive train I wouldn't be surprised if it displaced the Subaru as the best handling winter car.

Try a newer tuned-up turbo Subaru. Ripping around an unbelievable speeds in the snow and 0-60 in the 4's when dry. I would rather have an electric car that can be awesome and fun (not just "does OK") in any condition and not have to drive the Subaru in the winter.

 

[FANGO]

7% average improvement per year on a 300 mile pack would mean a 590 mile pack of the same size and weight in 10 years. Elon has said the average number is actually higher than this. Why do assume a static universe? Same disease people have when they think electric cars and solar power can't work.


Elon already said they could deliver a 500 mile pack TODAY, but decided to keep the cost/price under control for the Model S. Elon has also said more capacity will come, and not that far into the future.

No, 7% improvement per year on a 300 mile pack would mean a half-price, half-weight, half-size 300 mile pack in 10 years - that's three improvements instead of one, and much more attractive to manufacturers. There will not be a 590 mile pack in 10 years. Do you think there will be some time in the future where a 600 mile pack and a 300 mile pack will cost the same amount? Where a 600 mile pack won't make the entire car a lot heavier, and thus reduce efficiency at all times when driving the car, which would be a complete waste because nobody drives 600 miles in a day?

There will not be continually increasing EV ranges forever and ever as you are suggesting. We may have even seen the highest-range, or possibly second-highest range (as I said, I could see one more improvement in range from Tesla, like if they do a 100kWh X battery and then put it in the S as well or something), BEV that anyone will ever make outside of niche applications. And I think this, as I said, because Elon and JB have said it - JB said in a talk last year that he thinks 300-400 will be the highest ranges will ever go and that any more would be superfluous. And other EV experts have said similar (only with smaller numbers, actually). And the superchargers exist. And it makes sense. A 600 mile pack just won't happen. There is no way in which it makes sense to build one.

You think that this is a disease of assuming a static universe, but the world *is* static. New land is not being grown from nowhere. People are moving closer together, rather than spreading apart. People are actually starting to drive less miles, at least in the US, and people are migrating into cities. The world is getting smaller, not larger. If people don't need a 600 mile battery pack today, they won't need one in the future. You are thinking of this in terms of batteries getting bigger, but that is only one of many numbers which manufacturers and consumers look at, and once consumers have any sort of experience in an EV, and as quick charging gets more widespread, the amount of range people think they need will decrease. The amount of range they actually need will decrease, albeit very slowly. But in neither case will the amount of range they need be 1,000 miles or any other crazily high number. As far as I'm concerned, and I use statistics (linked above) to back this up, 300 is already an overshoot, and is really only necessary from a PR standpoint. Keep in mind that superchargers are ~150 miles away even today, even in the beginning of the buildout of the network, and will only get more dense as time goes on.

As I said, I'm certain enough about this that I would put money on it. Technology will bring cost, weight and efficiency savings, not neverending range increases. And regarding your comment about evangelism, which I'm not quite sure you were getting at with, I believe it is actually harmful to EVs and to Tesla to suggest that 300 miles is somehow inferior, and that EVs need to have 600, 900, or whatever else mile range in order to be usable. They do not, and manufacturers won't make cars like that because of the reasons mentioned above. So all this does is delay buying decisions, and put undue importance on the issue of "range," which longtime EV drivers will know is not nearly as important as the non-EV-driving public seems to think it is. At this point, after driving EVs for 4 years, I actually think range is one of the least interesting questions I can ask about an EV. Most of them have far more than necessary for me and the vast majority of drivers.

 

[VolkerP]

@Fango

I think many threads on this forum prove that range is important to EV drivers. "I made it but that was close", "I didn't want to drive it down into the last 10% SoC", "I want some buffer when my battery degrades" and so on.
I see your point of battery size not growing further and further. Gas tanks in ICE vehicles could provide 1000 miles of range easily, but they seldom do. Instead the size corresponds with gas mileage, giving the vehicle a "convenient" range for what it is meant to do. Evs will reach a similar point, but it's hard to predict where average range demand will settle.