Fisker Says 'Plug-In Hybrids Make More Sense Than Pure Electrics'

[ipdamages]

My Roadster (2010 Sport, with 25,000 miles, built in February of 2010) has a touted range of 245 miles. When I range charge it I can get it to read about 238 ideal miles, though in the couple hours after reaching that level it settles down to about 220 ideal miles. After a normal charge it gets to 180 +/- a couple ideal miles, or if I charge at 110 I can get it up to 185 ideal miles. When I have 180 ideal miles, I have 135 actual expected range, given that I don't drive in an ideal way (e.g., I drive 75 on the freeway in the 65 zone, like just about everyone). Living in SoCal I almost never need climate control, though I occasionally drive at night so I need headlights, and I always have the stereo on. In other words, I think I'm a pretty normal Tesla driver.

I occasionally drive down to San Diego, which is 120 miles away. It is reachable in my Roadster. But the logistics on getting a charge are not easy. The last time I was there I left my car at the zoo and paid their ChargePoint system, and then I got someone to pick me up and drive me to my destination from there. And then someone drove me back after 12 hours and I was still not completely recharged, but well enough to drive to a mall near the San Diego Wild Animal Park, where I ChargePointed again while I stopped and looked at giraffes and rhinos for a few hours and got enough miles to get me home. ChargePoint, in my opinion, is far mroe expensive than it should be, but I appreciate that they need to recover their installation costs, and even at their high rate it ends up costing about as much as gas (per mile).

My point is that my "245 mile range" Roadster has a real range of 135 miles, unless you range charge, which is bad for the battery. And obviously you wouldn't want to have a zero-mile cushion, and it is bad for the battery to drive down to full depletion, so it really has a range of more like 115-120 miles. And that is just fine for my day-to-day-needs, which is why it is my daily driver. And I love it. The Tesla grin is something I experience every day.

Translating from my 245 ideal mile pack to the 285-mile MS pack, I'll call that 120 mile real range more like 150 miles. Assuming a range charge of more like 260 miles after settling (after 20,000 miles), and 0.7 as the adjustment factor to get to real range, I'll estimate that at 182 miles of real expected range mode miles, or more like 160 if you keep a little cushion or drive in a more spirited manner than average. If one was to drive on the 5, for example, from LA to SF, the average speed there is about 75-80 mph, so the actual miles would be less. The same with LA-SD. Nobody is driving 60 mph through Camp Pendleton or in the HOV lane.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that for a round-trip that is more than 80 miles from your home (assuming a Model S with the 85 kWh pack), BEVs require planning, getting rides from people, being concerned about how you're driving, leaving your car at a publc charging location, and other things that are inconvenient. It is for that reason that I have an Audi A4 Avant, and it is a perfect ICE backup (and is great for when I need four seats to take my family to dinner or want to make a Home Depot run). Of course, dinner for the family in a Model S is incredibly easy, except for the fact that you can't park in one space at your local Olive Garden in a Model S without enfuriating adjacent parkers, and if you have too many garlic roll sticks you likely won't be able to fit back in the car - even with an abundance of door dings.

As for making that Home Depot run to get some potting soil and a Japanese Maple, well, that's your call. I betcha WeatherTech is working on some molds as I type.

And the point is that aside from the fact that PHEVs have even less storage space, I absolutely believe that PHEVs provide a valuable solution. All of the range anxiety issues are gone. Period. Americans (and most people in the rest of the world) do not want inconveniences like having to plan, or think, or get a ride to the ChargePoint, or leave their $100,000 car at a public charge location for several hours. They also don't want to have to rent a car to make a round trip to see their in-laws that are 100 miles away.

And finally, Gen 3 is not going to have as much range. No mass market car is going to have that much range, absent some significant advance in battery technology.

So Model S is great for people who can afford an expensive car, and who are up for the EV life, with its planning and accomodating. And the Leaf and i3 and other BEVs with less than 100 miles of range are great for people who can afford multiple cars and have space for them. PHEVs are great for the rest of the world (assuming you don't need much trunk space - though I have fit a lot of stuff in a Prius).

Just my $0.02...

 

[Doug_G]

Charging in Range mode is not bad for the battery, if you charge it then drive it. The additional degradation due to a couple of hours at full charge is unmeasurable. It is actually much better for the battery to Range mode charge it than to run it down near zero charge. So I would not hesitate to use Range mode if you have any possibility of needing it. I simply wouldn't use it if you don't need it.

That said, EVs are not perfect - no technology is. I suspect you would find you need a lot less planning, rides from friends, etc., if you drove a little bit slower on the longest trips. Of course it would help if there were better charging infrastructure in your area, e.g. Superchargers (obviously doesn't apply to your Roadster). Once fast chargers are widely deployed EVs will become even more practical.

But yes, PHEVs most certainly have their place - especially now with the limited charging infrastructure. But you cannot flatly say, "PHEVs make more sense than EVs". I find my Model S needs 100% of my daily driving requirements, including whatever longish side-trips I need to make during the day. The only time it is ever limiting me at all is on road trips, when I have to go several hundred miles.

 

[vfx]

Re your SD drive.

Do you range charge or do those special trips for you still not warrant the battery life? Full charge and drain Once a month or so is actually recommend by Tesla.

Did you choose to drive fast so you could look at hippos? Or could you drive slower and miss the CP payment and some of the animals?

 

[ipdamages]

Doug - I did not flatly say that "PHEVs make more sense than EVs." I'm not sure you were suggesting that I did, but I did not. I think that there are tradeoffs, and no car is perfect for all situations and for all drivers. That said, I think that for people who can afford it and are good with a large car, Model S with an 85kWh pack is a great option unless they like to make long trips and/or are not up for some planning and accomodating the special issues of EV life.

As for range charging, I also understand that it is not unhealthy in some circumstances. But that isn't universally believed or communicated, and people like TMC folks like us are not the norm. A review of the dialogue on the behavior to improve battery life is exhaustive. Charge at certain hours of the day, depending when you plan to drive. Let it settle before driving. Charge immediately after driving if you deplete the battery. Never run out of charge or you will damage the battery. Don't paint your car or the heat will hurt the battery. Don't drive quickly when the range gets low. Careful with climate control. Put it in storage mode if it is not going to be driven for a few weeks. Leave the car plugged when at rest. Blah blah blah.

Eric - as for my SD drive, I don't think that 75 mph in a 70 zone is very aggressive. But could I have made it back to LA from SD directly? I think so. Unfortunately, the Hotel La Jolla got rid of its 14-50, so I was looking for public charge spots, and as we know, charging to 80% is quick, but 100% takes a lot more time.

Also, I'm fine with range charging my car, and I'm fine with driving it - even if the battery does age. I'm not trying to keep this as a museum piece. I want to enjoy it. And if that means putting a new pack in it when the car gets to 150,000 miles, I will likely do it. I love the car. I also hope that an improved pack with even better performance is an option by then. We'll see. Of course, as has been elsewhere discussed, the car is not designed to take more stresses than what it currently generates, so who knows what would bust under greater force, how fast you would burn through tires, etc.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

Re your SD drive.

You should be having fewer troubles than you are, because the situation is better than what you seem to believe. You do get 135 miles projected range the way you drive (I get 140, so I know what you mean), but there is an additional 20 miles of reserve below that. So reaching "zero miles" in normal driving mode is not running the battery down to empty. Also, that 135 miles should become about 180 if you range charge -- which is just-fine-thank-you a few times a year, just don't do it all the time.

If you range charge before departing on the SD trip, you should have roughly 60 miles (~45%) projected range (plus your 20-mile reserve) when you reach SD, and then you can just do a standard charge on the ChargePoint... but it'll take less time and cost less money than it does now.

 

[Doug_G]

Doug - I did not flatly say that "PHEVs make more sense than EVs."

That's what Fisker said - see OP.

As for range charging, I also understand that it is not unhealthy in some circumstances. But that isn't universally believed or communicated, and people like TMC folks like us are not the norm. A review of the dialogue on the behavior to improve battery life is exhaustive. Charge at certain hours of the day, depending when you plan to drive. Let it settle before driving. Charge immediately after driving if you deplete the battery. Never run out of charge or you will damage the battery. Don't paint your car or the heat will hurt the battery. Don't drive quickly when the range gets low. Careful with climate control. Put it in storage mode if it is not going to be driven for a few weeks. Leave the car plugged when at rest. Blah blah blah.

Obviously communications could be better:

The Range mode warning message would be a lot better if it simply said, "Please do not leave the car charging in Range mode for extended periods of time."

Model S doesn't have a Storage mode, and I don't think it's worthwhile using it on the Roadster for just a few weeks. I only use it when storing over the winter.

People often worry about their headlights and such, when they don't matter at all. The only things that matter for range are speed, weather, and HVAC.

Most other stuff doesn't really matter. Main rule is, don't let your car drain to zero, and try to leave it plugged in when you're not using it.

 

[lolachampcar]

Me thinks IPDamages does not have a MS.
I took a trip to the South Beach store a few weeks ago. I range charged, had 80 miles of projected when I got back home and made projected on the trip. That was at 70 mph with traffic AC running the whole way.
Given all the hype other mfgs spew when talking about range, I was pleasantly surprised to see MS delivered even for someone that drives like I do.
I just did not want to leave readers with the impression that rated range on MS was a joke.

 

[Mr X]

fisker is jealous tesla is better than them

 

[AnOutsider]

Me thinks IPDamages does not have a MS.
I took a trip to the South Beach store a few weeks ago. I range charged, had 80 miles of projected when I got back home and made projected on the trip. That was at 70 mph with traffic AC running the whole way.
Given all the hype other mfgs spew when talking about range, I was pleasantly surprised to see MS delivered even for someone that drives like I do.
I just did not want to leave readers with the impression that rated range on MS was a joke.

I must say, with the weather warming up, I'm seeing MUCH better range. Drove around 80-85 for about 40 miles yesterday and usage was still under 400wh/m

 

[ipdamages]

Me thinks IPDamages does not have a MS.
I took a trip to the South Beach store a few weeks ago. I range charged, had 80 miles of projected when I got back home and made projected on the trip. That was at 70 mph with traffic AC running the whole way.
Given all the hype other mfgs spew when talking about range, I was pleasantly surprised to see MS delivered even for someone that drives like I do.
I just did not want to leave readers with the impression that rated range on MS was a joke.

lola, you are correct that I do not have a Model S. I have a 2010 Roadster Sport. I bought the Roadster immediately after test driving the Fisker Karma, when I realized that a car that large would not work for me, I was dissatisfied with the all electric range of the Karma, the car was more sluggish than I had hoped, and the sound of the Karma in Sport mode (with the ICE engaged) was disturbing. I also knew that the Model S was the same size as the Karma, so it won't fit in parking spaces, it has blind spots, and I find the appearance of the Model S uninspiring. So I bought a used Roadster and it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I love the car.

I have spoken with the techs at the Tesla service location in Los Angeles, and they said they had not expected so many cars to come in with oopsie dings and crunches and bumps. But driving a car that big is very different from driving a Roadster, and Model S drivers are generally speaking less of an early adopter, type A car owner. They are closer to the mass market, and with a big car that is exacerbated. So there are many more owies on the Model Ss that have been sold - even in the short time that the car has been out there.

But back to my point: while I dig my Roadster, I also know that the Roadster is not a car for everyone. It requires that I have another car for going anywhere with my family, for long-range trips, and for hauling things around. Perhaps more importantly, I have come to appreciate the need for a BEV owner to embrace the EV life. That said, in the end, given all of the great things about the Roadster, I'm totally fine with that. I plan ahead, I am diligent with my battery so as to preserve its life, and I plug my car in every night. As a result, I am rewarded with a car with 26K miles that showed 184 ideal miles last night after a 110 charge. But many aren't as anal about battery maintenance as I am, and for the most part even diligence can't stop the effects of time on battery life. So some on this board have seen their ideal mile range drop from the low 190s when new to the 160s after a few years. And again, that is ideal miles, so actual range is more like 160 x 0.7 = 112 miles, not including the extra/hidden 10% at the bottom (which is reported to be damaging to access), and not including the top 10% (which is reported to be damaging to access - though it is also said that it is good to range charge at times to rebalance the pack, which adds to the complexity of EV life as even one who is up to the effort of trying to be a good owner has to process conflicting messages on ideal behavior, as seen in the battery life threads on TMC).

It is encouraging that you have had a good experience with your Model S, lola, as regards range. I'm glad to hear that as it is real world experiences with real humans that best evidence what future owners should expect. Please do as we Roadster owners have been for years - get the word out.

But please also be honest. EV life is not without its complications. And I realize that you just got your car so you may be in the honeymoon phase, but the NY Times article is not completely fabricated. And the fact that people the TMC board have spent hundreds, or thousands, of hours reading about and discussing EV life is indicative of the enthusiasm that these owners have for their cars. But that can't be a requirement for mass-market success. You and I, and we, are the exception, not the rule. We have more $, interest in social causes, and willingness to be trailblazers than Joe the Plumber. We are also apparently more willing to plan our trips around visits to supercharger locations and ChargePoint locations than many.

Last week I had a meeting in Riverside, CA. I got there early so I could park at the charging station and walk 1/2 mile from there to my meeting, lugging a box of documents with me. My colleague with an ICE drove there, parked in front of the building, and filled up at one of the many gas stations for his trip home. I was fine with it and the 1/2 mile walk was a good wake-up. But most people wouldn't want to have to get there 20 minutes early, or get a ride from a friend back to their car.

Americans, and I think people in general, are averse to avoidable discomforts like this. So as we see improvements in battery technology in future models, and a build-out of the charging infrastructure, the inconveniences of driving a BEV will become smaller and the perceived value of the advantages will hopefully increase. For example, I saw a study today that talked about battery technology improvements that will allow for faster charging. If that comes to pass, it will be a huge positive development in the industry. Here's a link: Fast DC Charging for Electric Vehicles Pike Research

And finally, I think we can agree that ideal miles are ideal - not expected for anyone who drives as an average driver does. And range falls over time. And driving long distances in an EV requires planning. My aim has always been to stick to real facts and to avoid "joke" representations of range or other aspects of EV life.

 

[lolachampcar]

I think we are on the same page....

I picked up my Zero 9DS (bike) in Orlando and had a buddy driving up from West Palm to meet me at the first service plaza. I was told the bike would go 60 miles at 70 mph. It made it 43 before the I got the blinking capacity warning. I stopped early, called my bud and ask him to drive a little further up the road to get me. About a month and a half later I got an email from the new CEO of Zero asking for my input. I told him the bike was great but my very first experience with the company was the realization they had lied on range. When I dropped by to drive a Leaf several months later, I took the range numbers with a grain of salt and confirmed my suspicions with a search on "Real Leaf range" later that night.

Given the above, I was very pleased to find that I make rated range driving normally (not a spirited run) and wanted to pass that along. I was not being overly careful nor "hypermiling". Tesla told me the truth for my type of driving in nice warm South Florida. I can live with 70 mph and the AC on when I am going somewhere. Days over 120 miles are a rarity for me so MS is perfect. That being said, I agree that the car is not perfect for everyone for many reasons; range and price come readily to mind.

Had I not owned a Sport 190 many years ago, I probably would have purchased a Roadster. I got a chance to drive one and it is a very well built car. Regretfully, my frame of reference was the lightened track ICE version so I really felt the extra weight.

Even though MS is not right for everyone I think the idea of teething on the Roadster then slowly working the way down the price curve to GenIII is a good approach. I am rooting for Tesla's success.

 

[DrTaras]

Last week I had a meeting in Riverside, CA. I got there early so I could park at the charging station and walk 1/2 mile from there to my meeting, lugging a box of documents with me. My colleague with an ICE drove there, parked in front of the building, and filled up at one of the many gas stations for his trip home. I was fine with it and the 1/2 mile walk was a good wake-up. But most people wouldn't want to have to get there 20 minutes early, or get a ride from a friend back to their car.

Americans, and I think people in general, are averse to avoidable discomforts like this.

True that!

From what I understand (from Jay Leno, whom I get all my news from :wink: , when Americans bought new diesel cars in the early 1960s, it came with a map of where they could fuel up because many gas stations did not have automotive grade diesel fuel.

There were trail blazers behind me and trail blazers ahead of me and I'm glad & thankful we can all help to carry the football down the field. alphabet-soup-EV... we welcome all of you under the big tent!