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Fisker Says 'Plug-In Hybrids Make More Sense Than Pure Electrics'
- Thread starter Doug_G
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- Electric Vehicles
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
A related point: In addition to the weight penalty, having to pack a dual powertrain into the car takes up a lot of space -- the exact opposite of a pure EV which frees up space. The Volt only seats 4, and it is small inside. The Honda Accord PHEV has a spacious cabin, but a trunk that is pathetic. Ford's C-Max has less compromised in this regard, but the rear cargo floor is raised compared to the hybrid (due to taller battery pack).
I think this will happen because of two things: first, drivers will realize that they aren't using the gasoline range extension that much, and second, charging infrastructure will be much better in 5 years, which will reassure people.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Yup. Plus the presence of lots of PHEVs will cause more infrastructure to be built, not the quick charging, but at workplaces, parks, and hotels and other destination points that people use the gas engine to get to.
+1 ! There's too much negative comments about PHEVs here. Pure EV is not possible for many right now. I own a Model S and a Volt.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I would almost get a Volt, but it doesn't have the space to haul my family. Only Model S does (in the plug-in segment)
I think PHEVs have a place in the market, they make sense for a lot of users. But I don't think anybody has any reason to listen to the guy who didn't make a very good one.
I have almost 5000 miles on my Model S. Over that time I have never needed my range extended. I have needed the 5 seats and the cargo space very regularly, and neither the Volt nor the Fisker would provide the utility I need. The Fisker would have burned gasoline almost every day if I had one instead of the Model S, and over those last 5000 miles I would have been forced to go to a gas station at least a dozen times because of range anxiety.
The pure EV - effortlessly charged every day in my garage - has been vastly more convenient for me.
I have almost 5000 miles on my Model S. Over that time I have never needed my range extended. I have needed the 5 seats and the cargo space very regularly, and neither the Volt nor the Fisker would provide the utility I need. The Fisker would have burned gasoline almost every day if I had one instead of the Model S, and over those last 5000 miles I would have been forced to go to a gas station at least a dozen times because of range anxiety.
The pure EV - effortlessly charged every day in my garage - has been vastly more convenient for me.
In case anyone was not aware, the Karma weighs in at 5300lb. I don't understand how Fisker can make the arguement about toting around a giant battery pack when his own product is toting around a whole lot more.
I agree with the other posters that PHEV will be the bridge over range anxiety. It's unfortunate that most won't make the leap to BEV right away, but I do think that Tesla's presence in the automotive market resulted in an inflection point regarding the sentiment surrounding BEV's. The sales will come.
Most people can't make the leap, at least without significant help. The problem is that it doesn't take many rentals per year to make a BEV uneconomical. The first step is 2 car households like mine where we could have PHEV + BEV.
If battery prices keep falling, it'll favor a shift to PHEV as they become cheaper than HEV.
However, IF battery prices drop as optimistic projections suggest, the economics would take a massive shift in favor of BEV. It's at that point where rental companies could step up and offer a package that works. Car companies could do it, but they depend on selling cheap tech, so I doubt it'd happen unless Tesla comes through and can do their own rental scheme for their Gen 3 buyers.
scottf200
Well-Known Member
My Volt is a a 40 mile BEV and a 360 mile PHEV after that. Hence EREV. Full electric, full throttle up to 101 MPH. (vs PHEV kicking on ICE under throttle or at certain speeds)
I have 20K EV miles out of 25K total miles. I've used the ICE 20% and it sure is nice and smooth. Very little maintenance. After 2 years I need to change the oil this month. I've driven all but 50 miles of the 25K in max regen (L). It works consistently even on the coldest days we've had in Chicagoland and after sitting in a parking lot all day. Not sure when I'll need brakes (or plugs, etc).
And by contrast I've changed my mind on the usefulness of BEVs. I have gained confidence in one BEV based on what Tesla delivered with the Model S and that they are improving it proactively OTA. That is impressive. I would not be comfortable owning a mini-BEV with way less than 100 mile real range even in the winter with reasonably comfortable heat settings.
I have money down on a Model X to replace my SUV (bought originally for pulling the camper, not for taking out friends, moving college kids, helping friends, etc)
I have 20K EV miles out of 25K total miles. I've used the ICE 20% and it sure is nice and smooth. Very little maintenance. After 2 years I need to change the oil this month. I've driven all but 50 miles of the 25K in max regen (L). It works consistently even on the coldest days we've had in Chicagoland and after sitting in a parking lot all day. Not sure when I'll need brakes (or plugs, etc).
And by contrast I've changed my mind on the usefulness of BEVs. I have gained confidence in one BEV based on what Tesla delivered with the Model S and that they are improving it proactively OTA. That is impressive. I would not be comfortable owning a mini-BEV with way less than 100 mile real range even in the winter with reasonably comfortable heat settings.
I have money down on a Model X to replace my SUV (bought originally for pulling the camper, not for taking out friends, moving college kids, helping friends, etc)
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rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Here at least, BEV sales outstrip the PHEV sales by a factor of over 10:1.
In 2012 there was sold 176 PiP, 158 Opel Ampera, 6 Fisker Karma and one Cheverolet Volt. A total of 341 cars.
The BEV sales composed of 2298 Nissan Leaf, 665 Mitsubishi i-MiEV, 513 Citroen C-Zero, 407 Peugeot iOn, 32 Tesla Roadster, 18 Th!nk, 11 Mia electric and 4 Fiat Fiorino. A total 3949 cars.
In February, the Leaf had it's best month yet, at 287 cars or 2.5% of the market. That makes it the 5th best selling car that month, ahead of cars like VW Passat, Toyota Prius and Ford Focus. It was only beat by VW Golf, Toyota Yaris, Mazda CX-5 and Toyota Auris. (I guess the Mazda CX-5 is a new release that will fall down on the statistics fairly soon.)
In 2012 there was sold 176 PiP, 158 Opel Ampera, 6 Fisker Karma and one Cheverolet Volt. A total of 341 cars.
The BEV sales composed of 2298 Nissan Leaf, 665 Mitsubishi i-MiEV, 513 Citroen C-Zero, 407 Peugeot iOn, 32 Tesla Roadster, 18 Th!nk, 11 Mia electric and 4 Fiat Fiorino. A total 3949 cars.
In February, the Leaf had it's best month yet, at 287 cars or 2.5% of the market. That makes it the 5th best selling car that month, ahead of cars like VW Passat, Toyota Prius and Ford Focus. It was only beat by VW Golf, Toyota Yaris, Mazda CX-5 and Toyota Auris. (I guess the Mazda CX-5 is a new release that will fall down on the statistics fairly soon.)
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
If I were Fisker, I would be saying the same thing. Model S has changed this whole discussion. I'm living proof as I have never even considered a Volt, Leaf or any other type of battery powered car and yet I now own MS.
Thank you to all that have pushed the process this far (Leaf, Volt, etc. owners) but I'm really the type of customer we need. I had absolutely no clue about the industry up until Tesla. Sure, I'd driven the Roadster but having owned a Sport 190 (Elise) I knew the car was not for me. With MS, Tesla has brought full utility to the table for most all drivers. It has changed the game and for the better.
Thank you to all that have pushed the process this far (Leaf, Volt, etc. owners) but I'm really the type of customer we need. I had absolutely no clue about the industry up until Tesla. Sure, I'd driven the Roadster but having owned a Sport 190 (Elise) I knew the car was not for me. With MS, Tesla has brought full utility to the table for most all drivers. It has changed the game and for the better.
The main advantage of a PHEV or HEV is that it is mostly similar people's previous vehicles. It's all about making the transition. Once you've had an HEV or PHEV for a few years, it will be obvious that the battery is a non-issue. That's why many Telsa purchasers are coming directly from HEVs rather than purchasing a PHEV.
Please elaborate on that? I think the only way that would be the case is if the car can fulfill all needs without inconvenience or need of a backup ICE. I know personally, if we were only able to have one car in our household, the S (or any other current BEV) wouldn't be it.
My current driving needs are entirely satisfied by the Model S, with the exception of one trip a year. For that I will rent a car. Hopefully there will be charging infrastructure in upstate New York in the near future, so I won't even need to do that.
Agreed. We're going to have a model X and an old NSX. That should be completely practical, no?
Actually it is completely different.
While ICE doesn't do a thing until it is fired up except causing extra drag and energy usage, larger battery is always providing energy. Because it is larger it:
a) provides same or even more power at lower discharge currents
b) doesn't get deeply discharged until you travel really far.
These two translate into longer battery lifetime.
85 kWh battery has unlimited warranty, 40 kWh pack has a 100k mile warranty limit. This is exactly because higher average current levels running from 40 kWh cause more internal damage than in 85 kWh.
Now consider a measly 16 kWh battery of best current plug-in hybrids. What is the warranty?
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Not just that. Driving 100 000 miles on a 40 kWh battery pack means around 700 full charge/discharge cycles, while driving 100 000 miles on a 85 kWh battery pack means around 380 full charge/discharge cycles. It's obvious that using each cell more means more degradation.
I haven't checked, but it wouldn't surprise me greatly if it were 8 years. The reason is that plug-in hybrids use more expensive cells with a longer life span (as do cars like the i-MiEV and Leaf relative to the Model S).
I haven't looked at the figures in detail, but fundamentally, a 20 kWh 100 000 mile battery pack can cost exactly as much as a 40 kWh 100 000 mile battery pack. You get more lifespan by using more money, but not necessarily more total range over the lifespan of the battery pack. This is why I believe the Tesla strategy of using commodity-cells is right - you get a longer range basically for free.
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