Getting interesting... BMW 3-Series EV

[zenmaster]

Zenmaster,

What makes you so confident the Model 3 will weigh more than a 3 series with similar performance?

Really just the obvious - that big battery pack and the materials used in construction.

Elon has often cautioned against using past experience (Model S) to predict the Model 3 experience.
If Model 3 75RWD weighs around the same as the 3 series 330i the Model 3 has the POTENTIAL to handle better.

Agreed. but I don't see how it can weigh around the same as the 3-series. Can you? Perhaps it could weigh around the same as a 5-series.

I think Elon and crew are well aware of the target competition. They did a pretty good job with Model S even though the battery tech was not where the 2170's will be for Model 3.

I think you misunderstand what I was getting at. I do believe the car will probably offer the most overall value for the money (if it's 35k) in a market that includes the 3-series and equivalently priced "entry level luxury" vehicles. What I don't see is Elon and crew considering performance as a main focus for this platform, simply because of cost considerations and lack of interest among most buyers in the market. We've seen the potential for competitive acceleration, that is not in question. But when you get into handling, that is a whole other kettle of fish. Sure Tesla would want the car to be competitive in every single metric, but the reality is they have cost considerations and only have to provide features that together offer an overall better value.

 

[PeterHG]

you are the stuff of legend! I was following the ActivE sooooooo close back in the days (never got to drive one) and thought it was gonna be obvious that they would bump the battery up to 45kw for the release model. And then we got the crappy i3. T_T

Thanks. It was a great drive. Very similar to a normal BMW--A bit better in terms of center of gravity, so it was more stable than an ICE 1 series. Though also a bit less snappy around corners because all that weight had to be moved.

 

[zenmaster]

Thanks. It was a great drive. Very similar to a normal BMW--A bit better in terms of center of gravity, so it was more stable than an ICE 1 series. Though also a bit less snappy around corners because all that weight had to be moved.

Some design student did this recently: Behance

 

[internalaudit]

I just finished a 3 hour drive in a Cadillac ATS 2.0T
This car is billed as a BMW 3 series competitor. If this is accurate, the Model 3 will blow away not only a 3 series but every other car in that category. Model 3 will offer better performance, more room, and better handling at a price 10K less than the competitors. I could do a more in depth review of the ATS but suffice it to say: You don't want one.
I did own a 3 series a few years back though and those cars offer a great dynamic experience. Having driven a Model S for a weekend though, and knowing the Model 3 should be more nimble and fun to drive than the S, for me it's case closed vs a 3 series or similar.

Does this mean you think the M3's steering, suspension and braking will be as sharp as the ATS' and the 3 Series? What suspension set up do the S come with?

I actually thought instant torque and the lower center of gravity was all that was going for an EV, even a M3, but I guess that straight line acceleration is something most of us want.

If we get 70% of the sportiness of the suspension/braking on the S Performance model dating back to 2012, it should be quite fun in a more tossable M3:
2012 Tesla Model S Signature Performance Suspension Walkaround

 

[Topher]

I think these shared platforms are all questionable.

Elon seems to think sharing the platform of the Model 3 with a new Model Y is a mistake. That is two small(ish) BEVs. He seems happy to just throw more engineers at a problem.

I'd rather feel good driving a great 125 mile range BEV and help the environment in the process than drive yet another new POS ICE for several more years to come.

This answers what you should be doing, rather than what car companies should be doing.

Really just the obvious - that big battery pack and the materials used in construction.

A BMW 330i has a curb weight of 3569 lbs (according to C/D). What do you think the Model 3 will weigh?

Thank you kindly.

 

[zenmaster]

A BMW 330i has a curb weight of 3569 lbs (according to C/D). What do you think the Model 3 will weigh?

The Model 3 will likely weigh around 3700lbs with a 75kWh battery. I know what Tesla was targeting, but I don't believe they could pull it off. The Model 3 will be not be competing with the old F30, however, but rather the G20, which will weigh around 3400lbs.

 

[AustinPowers]

This answers what you should be doing, rather than what car companies should be doing.

My comment was a direct answer to RobStark's post of:

Sufficient as a secondary vehicle keeps BEVs in the green car ghetto. In other words a POS.

BEVs have to offer comparable real world benefits to ICEv in its same price range.

BEVs with 125 miles or less of range will forever remain less than .5% global automotive market share.

 

[Topher]

I know what Tesla was targeting, but I don't believe they could pull it off.

What knowledge do you have about how they are building the car that they don't have? It sounds like you are just making stuff up.

Thank you kindly.

 

[zenmaster]

What knowledge do you have about how they are building the car that they don't have? It sounds like you are just making stuff up.

Are you serious? Even though it's about 20% less material than the S, they already said it will use heavier steel all else being equal. Probably all steel. Tesla is focused on cost cutting for this platform. We have a good idea how much the battery will weigh, so not sure why you are really questioning this - anyone can do the simple math. There is no magic going on here with this product. I believe the recent poll in this forum had most forum members figuring it would come in at over 3700lbs.
Model S 75 curb weight: 4,469 lbs

 

[JeffK]

Are you serious? Even though it's about 20% less material than the S, they already said it will use heavier steel all else being equal. Probably all steel. Tesla is focused on cost cutting for this platform. We have a good idea how much the battery will weigh, so not sure why you are really questioning this - anyone can do the simple math. There is no magic going on here with this product. I believe the recent poll in this forum had most forum members figuring it would come in at over 3700lbs.
Model S 75 curb weight: 4,469 lbs

not 20% less material ... 20% less weight (according to Elon). It's a mix of aluminum and steel.
He said:

"about 20% lighter"

 

[electracity]

not 20% less material ... 20% less weight (according to Elon). It's a mix of aluminum and steel.
He said:

I hope it is not "the world's best lightweight seating".

 

[Swampgator]

Elon for sure said 20% lighter. A model S75D weighs roughly 4700 pounds so 80% of that comes to 3700 pounds give or take a few.
People struggle I think to wrap their heads around the advantages of higher energy density in the new cells.
That's one reason people keep thinking maybe someday the Model 3 can get a 100 kwh battery. Why would it need that? This is the same static thinking that causes S fans to someday hope for a 120kwh battery or more. I'll take a Model S with a 100 kwh battery and 500 pounds less weight any day. This may be what we get once Model S transitions to 2170 cells. This of course may not happen until a redesign for S given the different form factor of the new cells. But P100D that weighs 4500 pounds will handle better, get more range, be faster, and cost no more, maybe less.
The Model 3 just gets to take advantage of those gains sooner because of it's design cycle.

 

[Bangor Bob]

Handling - WHERE the mass is matters as much as how much there is.

Despite likely being heavier, the Model 3 (and electric 3-Series) is likely to have a lower polar moment of inertia than a gas-powered 3-series - which affects the "quickness" of handling. You can only push that gas motor and it's support systems back towards the passenger cabin so far before you stop having a passenger vehicle. The Model 3 will carry it's weight much closer to the center of rotation.

 

[zenmaster]

Handling - WHERE the mass is matters as much as how much there is.

There are many aspects to handling.

 

[Topher]

What knowledge do you have about how they are building the car that they don't have?

Probably all steel.

So. NONE. got it.

Thank you kindly.

 

[zenmaster]

So. NONE. got it.

Ah the curt snippiness. Everyone knows they need to keep the build costs down. That factors into the repair and insurance costs. At this scale of production, insurance companies will not be so gracious on their premiums.