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#42
mswlogo said:
Tell that to the family of the murder suicide in wealthy suburb town I live in that happen just the other night.

Stats do tell the story.

The same people that think they their whole family will never waiver. Or have mental illness or drugs or stress. Like to believe, not them, until it does.

Statistically it probably won’t happen to your family. But statistically you are safer without a gun in the house. Believe or kid yourself all you want.
Click to expand...

If someone wants to commit suicide, or murder suicide, a gun isn't going to make them do it, it might be the tool they choose, or they might drive their Suburban off a cliff into the ocean. Don't see the left pushing for "high capacity vehicle bans".

How about opioid deaths much of the left wants to loosen restrictions on recreational drug use, drugs are killing folks at a much greater rate than guns, but there the answer is greater availability?

Far as the UK analogy, FL is a cesspool was there just yesterday, we are selective in where we go, we stay in a fairly well off retirement community, it can not be compared to most of the country, it is in no way representative. That said the UK is proof positive people will find another tool, knives.
 
#43
SSedan said:
If someone wants to commit suicide, or murder suicide, a gun isn't going to make them do it, it might be the tool they choose, or they might drive their Suburban off a cliff into the ocean. Don't see the left pushing for "high capacity vehicle bans".

How about opioid deaths much of the left wants to loosen restrictions on recreational drug use, drugs are killing folks at a much greater rate than guns, but there the answer is greater availability?

Far as the UK analogy, FL is a cesspool was there just yesterday, we are selective in where we go, we stay in a fairly well off retirement community, it can not be compared to most of the country, it is in no way representative. That said the UK is proof positive people will find another tool, knives.
Click to expand...
Not true re suicide ... access to a gun in particular is a huge determining factor in whether folks come out the other side of a horrible depression or die ... I know it doesn’t make sense but it is true... it is one of several factors in higher completed suicide among veterans... crucially important to ask directly and help these folks if we can. Remember responsible gun owners suffer from depression too, so do their family members .... would be great to see the NRA get back to what they used to do.... promote safety and education rather than sending some eagle mascot out to schools .... it’s kind of like a pharmaceutical company spending 8 billion on advertising and 10 million on research and product develop .... except the medication they promote can occasionally kill the patient and also about 20-30 people as a side effect at a time.... I know what you are saying, but buttershrimp it is between me and my doctor if I need this AR-15 OxyContin prescription.... you can pry it from my cold dead hands..... which will be quite easy because we can now get a high capacity medication magazine that allows me to really defend myself against the tyranny of back pain ....
 
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#44
So when you have an issue with NRA spending money on thing, how do you feel about Planned Parenthood who spends VASTLY more on political donations and is NOT a women's health organization but rather an abortion advocacy group and provider, and while making donations get tax dollars.

Responsible car owners and their families suffer depression too, don't blame the tool, yes guns are a very effective tool for suicide but if someone really wants to do that and isn't getting help they will find a way, the tool isn't the issue the mental health challenges are.

Suicide is a topic that has touched my family, I am not speaking from the outside.
 
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#45
Far as the UK analogy, FL is a cesspool was there just yesterday, we are selective in where we go, we stay in a fairly well off retirement community, it can not be compared to most of the country, it is in no way representative. That said the UK is proof positive people will find another tool, knives.[/QUOTE]

The knife crime in the UK is deplorable if you study the stats its manly inner city gang/black on black stabbings but much rarer than in the USA none the less 200 lives a year lost for nothing

the way i see it it is much less personal and distanced just shooting somone carrys less risk to the shooter, not many people would thake the chance with hand to hand combat for fear of a big can of whoopass coming thier way,
 
#46
SSedan said:
So when you have an issue with NRA spending money on thing, how do you feel about Planned Parenthood who spends VASTLY more on political donations and is NOT a women's health organization but rather an abortion advocacy group and provider, and while making donations get tax dollars.

Responsible car owners and their families suffer depression too, don't blame the tool, yes guns are a very effective tool for suicide but if someone really wants to do that and isn't getting help they will find a way, the tool isn't the issue the mental health challenges are.

Suicide is a topic that has touched my family, I am not speaking from the outside.
Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that all the evidence definitely suggests this statement isn't actually accurate and that the evidence suggests otherwise... even for things like suicide prevention railings on a bridge..... "if someone really wants to do that and isn't getting help they will find a way"... There is a debate to be had about what things make sense to do a railing.... and I'm not advocating that we nanny-state the hell out of everything.... rather, I'm arguing something simpler.... just use the car owner analogy and get a license to own a firearm. Get a more important and rigorous license if you are going to own more powerful weapons.... That's all I'm arguing.... I'm suggesting that we take the stupid government paranoia aspect out of it.... where we can't license people because they'll know where I live sort of thing.... which is just stupid. So, in short.... I'm not going to touch your abortion argument

1). Require people get licenses to buy and own and transfer guns.
2). Require background checks.
3). Implement extremely severe penalties against gun owners and gun sellers that allow their weapons to get into the wrong hands....
4.) Promote mental health discussions early and often in school and at the point of sale.

Do these things and you probably save a crap ton of lives.... something that most of us agree on. It's just reasonable.
 
#53
busaman said:
why not just remove the guns from the equasion that would save 30.000 lives in the USA alone each year
Click to expand...

Mass killings are very rare, accounting for only 0.2 percent of homicides every year and approximately 1 percent of homicide victims.Only 12 percent of mass killings are mass public shootings.

Most mass killings are familicides (murders of family members or intimate partners) and felony-related killings (such as robberies gone awry or gang-related “turf battles”)

Although there has been a slight increase in the frequency of mass public shootings over the past few years, the rates are still similar to what the United States experienced in the 1980s and early 1990s.Over 90 percent of public mass shootings take place in “gun-free zones” where civilians are not permitted to carry firearms.

A complete ban on “assault weapons” will save very few lives: Six out of every 10 mass public shootings are carried out by handguns alone, while only one in 10 is committed with a rifle alone.

The average age of mass public shooters is 34, which means that increasing the minimum age for purchasing firearms would not target the main perpetrators of mass public shootings.

Few mass public shooters have used “high-capacity magazines,” and there is no evidence that the lethality of their attacks would have been affected by delays of two to four seconds to switch magazines. In fact, some of the largest mass shootings in U.S. history were carried out with “low-capacity” weapons:The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 and injured 17 with two handguns, one of which had a 10-round magazine and the other a 15-round magazine. He simply brought 19 extra magazines.

Twenty-three people were killed and another 20 injured in a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria by a man with two 9mm handguns, capable of maximums of 15-round and 17-round magazines, respectively.

A mentally disturbed man armed with two handguns and a shotgun shot and killed 21 people in a San Ysidro McDonald’s and injured another 19. The handguns utilized 13-round and 20-round magazines, and the shotgun had a five-round capacity.

After adjusting for population differences, many other developed countries have worse problems with mass public shootings than the United States. There were 27 percent more casualties per capita from mass public shootings in the European Union than in the U.S. from 2009 to 2015.

In other countries, bombings, mass stabbings, and car attacks frequently kill more people than even the deadliest mass shootings in the United States. Consider the following:
    • Spain (2004) — Bombing: 192 deaths, 2,050 injuries;
    • Great Britain (2005) — Bombing: 52 deaths, 784 injuries;
    • Japan (2008) — Car ramming and stabbing: seven deaths, 10 injuries;
    • China (2010) — Shovel-loader: 11 deaths, 30 injuries;
    • China (2014) — Car ramming: six deaths, 13 injuries;
    • China (2014) — Mass stabbing: 31 deaths, 143 injuries;
    • Germany (2015) — Plane crash: 150 deaths;
    • Belgium (2016) — Bombing: 21 deaths, 180 injuries;
    • France (2016) — Car ramming: 86 deaths, 434 injuries;
    • Germany (2016) — Car ramming: 11 deaths, 56 injuries;
    • Japan (2016) — Mass stabbing: 19 deaths, 45 injuries; and
    • Great Britain (2017) — Bombing: 22 deaths, 250 injuries.
The simple truth is, if mentally disturbed people want to kill other people, taking guns away from everyone does only one thing........it prevents people from being able to protect themselves and loved ones from mentally disturbed people. And don't kid yourself, most criminals are sociopaths and sociopaths are mentally disturbed.
 
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#54
Bill Price said:
Mass killings are very rare, accounting for only 0.2 percent of homicides every year and approximately 1 percent of homicide victims.Only 12 percent of mass killings are mass public shootings.

Most mass killings are familicides (murders of family members or intimate partners) and felony-related killings (such as robberies gone awry or gang-related “turf battles”)

Although there has been a slight increase in the frequency of mass public shootings over the past few years, the rates are still similar to what the United States experienced in the 1980s and early 1990s.Over 90 percent of public mass shootings take place in “gun-free zones” where civilians are not permitted to carry firearms.

A complete ban on “assault weapons” will save very few lives: Six out of every 10 mass public shootings are carried out by handguns alone, while only one in 10 is committed with a rifle alone.

The average age of mass public shooters is 34, which means that increasing the minimum age for purchasing firearms would not target the main perpetrators of mass public shootings.

Few mass public shooters have used “high-capacity magazines,” and there is no evidence that the lethality of their attacks would have been affected by delays of two to four seconds to switch magazines. In fact, some of the largest mass shootings in U.S. history were carried out with “low-capacity” weapons:The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 and injured 17 with two handguns, one of which had a 10-round magazine and the other a 15-round magazine. He simply brought 19 extra magazines.

Twenty-three people were killed and another 20 injured in a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria by a man with two 9mm handguns, capable of maximums of 15-round and 17-round magazines, respectively.

A mentally disturbed man armed with two handguns and a shotgun shot and killed 21 people in a San Ysidro McDonald’s and injured another 19. The handguns utilized 13-round and 20-round magazines, and the shotgun had a five-round capacity.

After adjusting for population differences, many other developed countries have worse problems with mass public shootings than the United States. There were 27 percent more casualties per capita from mass public shootings in the European Union than in the U.S. from 2009 to 2015.

In other countries, bombings, mass stabbings, and car attacks frequently kill more people than even the deadliest mass shootings in the United States. Consider the following:
    • Spain (2004) — Bombing: 192 deaths, 2,050 injuries;
    • Great Britain (2005) — Bombing: 52 deaths, 784 injuries;
    • Japan (2008) — Car ramming and stabbing: seven deaths, 10 injuries;
    • China (2010) — Shovel-loader: 11 deaths, 30 injuries;
    • China (2014) — Car ramming: six deaths, 13 injuries;
    • China (2014) — Mass stabbing: 31 deaths, 143 injuries;
    • Germany (2015) — Plane crash: 150 deaths;
    • Belgium (2016) — Bombing: 21 deaths, 180 injuries;
    • France (2016) — Car ramming: 86 deaths, 434 injuries;
    • Germany (2016) — Car ramming: 11 deaths, 56 injuries;
    • Japan (2016) — Mass stabbing: 19 deaths, 45 injuries; and
    • Great Britain (2017) — Bombing: 22 deaths, 250 injuries.
The simple truth is, if mentally disturbed people want to kill other people, taking guns away from everyone does only one thing........it prevents people from being able to protect themselves and loved ones from mentally disturbed people. And don't kid yourself, most criminals are sociopaths and sociopaths are mentally disturbed.
Click to expand...

all of the above are terrorist related but, you missed out USA 9/11 by far bigger than anything before or since
 
#55
I'm going to put something out there and leave the forum and not respond because I have no illusions about anyone changing their mind. I am a physician and have been a supporter of gun control for many many years. I look at it as a public health issue. I acknowledge that rural Montana is a different planet than urban LA. I have had my finger in bullet holes to keep brain tissue from oozing out and know what the blood and vomit smells like.
I suggest that the United States, like many other "civilized" countries would be much better off if gun ownership were a privilege rather than a right. Yes, Authorities might decide that you might have to "qualify" to own a gun They might even restrict assault rifles or---god forbid---handguns. BUT, I assure you that, if your are responsible you will still be able to hunt, defend yourself, collect guns, and target shoot.

I t would take many generations to change our culture of violence but we would be better off for it. Do you really want to kill somebody? If you do kill someone, you will never be the same person that you are now.
 
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#57
Bill Price said:
The simple truth is, if mentally disturbed people want to kill other people, taking guns away from everyone does only one thing........it prevents people from being able to protect themselves and loved ones from mentally disturbed people. And don't kid yourself, most criminals are sociopaths and sociopaths are mentally disturbed.
Click to expand...

Lot of blathering to get to your final point which blows up your entire silly argument. Taking the guns away makes it far harder to kill anyone much less large groups of people. Bad things happen, that's life. This ludicrous idea that a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun reflects the complete lack of logic that gun nuts are so famous for. If the bad guy never had the gun in the first place... That's our entire point.

I'm a gun owner myself but keep them locked up properly which makes them useless as home defense weapons. Don't kid yourself, by the time I get into my gun safe and remove the trigger locks I'm already dead... Thats why we keep pepper spray handy... It works and it won't kill anyone else...

Jeff
 
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#58
rick said:
I'm going to put something out there and leave the forum and not respond because I have no illusions about anyone changing their mind. I am a physician and have been a supporter of gun control for many many years. I look at it as a public health issue. I acknowledge that rural Montana is a different planet than urban LA. I have had my finger in bullet holes to keep brain tissue from oozing out and know what the blood and vomit smells like.
I suggest that the United States, like many other "civilized" countries would be much better off if gun ownership were a privilege rather than a right. Yes, Authorities might decide that you might have to "qualify" to own a gun They might even restrict assault rifles or---god forbid---handguns. BUT, I assure you that, if your are responsible you will still be able to hunt, defend yourself, collect guns, and target shoot.

I t would take many generations to change our culture of violence but we would be better off for it. Do you really want to kill somebody? If you do kill someone, you will never be the same person that you are now.
Click to expand...

I believe that there IS a segment of ardent gun rights' advocates who would like to be able to kill others. The only thing holding them back is the penal code. For those individuals, the joy of taking a life that they despised far outweighs any personal trauma or angst. Think of all the nonfatal interactions between us over stupid and trivial matters. Rage mixed with weaponry is a deadly cocktail.

Look at the 3%ers, other militia members, the United Constitutional Patriots, and their ilk who tote their weapons around believing that they are doing us a public service. These individuals are predominately, if not 100%, white males. You think there might be some extreme bias and hatred festering within these people?

There are other factors in play. Blind fealty to a cause without even considering alternatives likely is rooted deep with a person's soul. We need to find out the truth: Why is the unfettered ability to own guns and do as we please with them so vital to our being? But no one wants to admit the truth as to why having guns, carrying them around 24/7, outfitting every family member, etc. is so important to them, other than the same old tired excuses that have no probative value. Ironic, isn't it?
 
#59
In the US, the right to own and carry a gun has nothing to do with protecting your property, daughter or dog from an intruder. Its all about being able to put up a fight against a tyrannical government. The moment a government doesn't fear the people, the people become slaves of the government.
 
#60
SSonnentag said:
In the US, the right to own and carry a gun has nothing to do with protecting your property, daughter or dog from an intruder. Its all about being able to put up a fight against a tyrannical government. The moment a government doesn't fear the people, the people become slaves of the government.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution states that the role of Congress includes:
"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"
Suppressing insurrections means the role of the militia is the exact opposite of what you posit. It's to prevent an uprising against the government.

Also, the Well Regulated Militia doesn't mean a bunch of yahoos running around with guns. Those words have meaning.

The Militia was first formed and defined by the Militia Act of 1792. It was last revised in the National Defense Act of 1916. The National Defense Act of 1916 states that the Well Regulated Militia are the state's National Guards.

So, you have the right to bear arms, as an active duty member of the National Guard.
 
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