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Now for something completely different

Elon Musk discussing the opportunity to reduce the cost (drastically) and increase the performance (drastically) for batteries produced by the Gigafactory for grid storage and vehicles.

Innovation and the Impact of Regulation with Elon Musk and Lyndon Rive - YouTube

From Minute 24:40


Spoiler: Gigafactory materials input costs reduced from Musk's previous $80 / KWh estimate to $60~$70 / KWh.


Earlier in the same video - Interesting point brought up by Musk that I have never heard discussed in a commercial context: The customer value proposition of high energy density of batteries used in fixed storage (example used - householders don't want to give up a spare room in the house for a battery - a great solution would be a few inches thick and basically unobtrusive (a bit like a Vehicle pack).
 
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A long time ago I wrote this: Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) news: On Elon Musk And Tesla Motors: The Art Of Modern Warfare In A Noble Cause - Seeking Alpha

This video: Innovation and the Impact of Regulation with Elon Musk and Lyndon Rive - YouTube

Minute 1:06:32

Final absolute confirmation of one if not the only theory it contained yet to be verified.

Tesla Vehicle Packs will Definitely be used in Grid Storage following vehicle application.

This is MONUMENTAL for Tesla's long term prospects as a business. Musk does not elaborate on the whole significance of it.

1. Say goodnight John Petersen, EVs are in fact an environmental and economic masterpiece.
2. The resale value of the packs can be calculated in MWh throughput in grid storage. This opens up an income stream for Tesla that blows away the revenues ICE manufacturers make from maintenance on poorly designed vehicles and replaces that income stream with a battery upgrade business that is attractive to all parties: Solar city - purchase of a ready to use significantly depreciated battery pack. The customer - a high trade in value of an old 85KWh pack when considering a new technology pack while simultaneously refreshing and upgrading the value of the Model S or Model X vehicle. Tesla - a fantastic value proposition to offer its customers each time a new technology pack becomes available leading to high percentage of fleet sales conversion of a high ticket item.


This ads at a minimum another 25% to any future valuation model applied to Tesla as a giant additional income stream.
 
Actually, about the only part of the car that the major auto companies make these days is the ICE... they outsource most of the other systems. And therein lies the problem for them... they can't just make an EV "if they really wanted to" because it would mean producing an entirely different powerplant that is a competitor to their ICE. Internal politics make that sort of thing very difficult.


That's exactly what I'm saying. The advantage isn't in technology. There is no technological barrier to them making an EV. The barriers are otherwise.
 
Your videos are unwatchable. Please stop posting them, here or anywhere else. Thank you.

I did have trouble making it through the video, i stopped about 5 minutes in. In order to be constructive: I think the presentation was a little slow, and I was going "get to the point". I skimmed a bit further, and it seems to be a summary of the past year events, which is not relevant to the stock as much as the forward looking issues.
 
That's exactly what I'm saying. The advantage isn't in technology. There is no technological barrier to them making an EV. The barriers are otherwise.

Several contributors here seem to dismiss the IP and patents that Tesla has/has applied for. And Elon has stated on several occasions, they have IP for which they will not disclose via the patent process. Considering no other company in the world has developed or can deliver a 200+ mile range electric car in volume, perhaps there is a bit of a technology moat?

I completely agree, with FANGO's assertion, "The barriers are otherwise." But I also think there are possibly some meaningful technological barriers Tesla has solved or improved upon.

(edit)

I was going to try to paraphrase this quote, but found a reference to it from 2012. It's in response specifically to the demise if Fisker, but it reinforces the point I made above.

The fundamental problem with Henrik Fisker — he is a designer or stylist… he thinks the reason we don’t have electric cars is for lack of styling. This is not the reason. It’s fundamentally a technology problem.

(Bolded for emphasis)
 
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Well damn, I had a strong feeling last night when going to sleep that we were going to have a good day today as people realized NJ didn't mean anything, and I didn't act on it. Oh well.


Actually, this is quite interesting. This statement really provides a window into the minds of the dealers, I think.

First, it reeks of jealousy - "it's not fair, why can't WE sell the best car from the hottest brand!"

But second, and perhaps more importantly - it speaks to the moat which Tesla has. Now, I don't actually believe that Tesla has a significant technological advantage. At the end of the day an EV is a very simple thing to make, much much simpler than a gas car, and I guarantee that the auto companies, if they actually bothered to put effort into it, could make a competitive EV to Tesla. It's not like nobody else can use 18650s, and everyone uses the same type of motor anyway, and they could write an internet-updating car OS, and they can make good interiors, etc. However, the problem is that their minds are in the wrong place, and most of them don't actually want to put effort into making an attractive EV - but this is not insurmountable. So where is Tesla's moat, if not in technology?

I think the moat evidenced by this guy's comment is in the minds of the consumer. He speaks of "Tesla cars" as if they're an actual thing, a different thing which only Tesla can make...and he's right. Tesla is the only company capable of making Tesla cars. Why does this matter though? Because Tesla is the de facto brand of the future. Tesla is *the* EV maker. Tesla is cool, they have first mover advantage, and people who know they exist identify them inextricably with EVs. Everyone who wants an electric car wants a Tesla. Tesla is the iPod, anything else which comes out from a bigger, established company is the Zune. Tesla won this brand battle, they did so in plain view of everyone, they did so while being written off, after announcing their intentions publicly many times, and now the traditional portion of the industry doesn't know what to do about it."


@FANGO

To your first point, as soon as Tesla gives away a franchise then the US auto dealer associations have got their hooks into Tesla. Right now they cannot claim to have done a single thing to earn a piece of Tesla's action. They never (intentionally) marketed Tesla and they never put a penny of investment into Tesla new vehicle inventory.

To your second point. Dealers are way ahead of Big Auto execs in identifying the danger from Tesla. If Big Auto operated their own sales and customer interactions they would be in possession of the same warning signals. Yes the brand dominance of Tesla, but also the technological advantage.

What Tesla has done technologically, is definitely beyond the capabilities in evidence across of Big Auto. The motor and control system is not the same as any other EV on the road. Every other EV on the road is using some variety of permanent magnet DC brushless system because the control systems for an infinitely variable speed and torque AC Induction system with the efficiencies achieved by Tesla are at the limit of modern power engineering. The twin AC induction system for the Model X is on another level beyond that.

As for batteries, Tesla has a battery that exists in a 5 star safety approved vehicle at approaching double the energy density and approaching half the cost per KWh achieved by any other EV on the road. It is very, very difficult to do this owing to the fact that as energy densities go up, so does the potential for something to go catastrophically wrong. Unlike a tank of gasoline that contains a preponderance of fuel and a fraction of the amount of air to burn that fuel completely, a charged battery is effectively a mixture of fuel and all of the oxidiser required to burn it. The higher the energy density the greater the propensity for trouble. Tesla has combatted this with, again, a masterpiece of engineering with layer after layer of safety systems, control systems, thermal management and fault-tolerance. It is very difficult for any cell in a Tesla pack to experience failure and very difficult indeed for the failure of one cell to spread to the next, and more difficult still for one failed module of cells to negatively affect additional modules, even following the direct intrusion of a metal object that would have exposed the contents of a gasoline tank to all the oxidiser in the world. This is a level of engineering that is significantly beyond that which has been shown to exist in Big Auto, which is why Tesla has not only the safest and longest range EV with performance approaching that of significantly more expensive supercars. The fact that Tesla now has the confidence both technologically and in terms of projected demand for its products to compound its first mover advantage by setting out to double the worlds battery supply capacity under its own control is no small hint either. To answer your point directly - even if there was some way around Tesla's safety and thermal management patents, just putting what is now 260Wh/Kh 18650s in a vehicle is not on the cards as a simple method of competing with Tesla. That is before we get into Tesla's patents for hybrid metal-air.

The fully firmware driven car - from drivetrain characteristics, to suspension, to climate control, to security, infotainment, navigation, peer-to-peer communication, over the air diagnostics and servicing, predictive servicing alerts, back to base SOS, even running apps for goodness sake, is an accomplishment on a par with iOS - Tesla has built its own Linux Kernel "tOS" to run the car. The fact that Tesla can run an iOS emulator to run iOS apps if it felt like it (on top of the operating system of the car) is Silicon Valley vs Detroit level of streets ahead. Apparently SAP was not good enough to build Tesla's back-office systems behind its web site, engineering, accounts and CRM so Tesla built its own ERP system. Big Auto is in a different century (a previous one) when it comes to IT capability. Building that kind of strength behind a low cost sensor suite from Mobileye promises to deliver exactly what Musk has been talking about: The world's first commercial, significantly autonomous vehicle, leapfrogging anything we have seen to date with park assist, adaptive cruise, lane change avoidance and so on.

The brand advantage that Tesla enjoys is not built on Superbowl ads (obviously) or any other kind of ephemeral marketing ploy. It is the result of unbelievable engineering to create an unbelievable product as well as unbelievable innovations in business model and customer care. Simple example: Not for profit servicing, a business innovation that is aligned to customer satisfaction and building reliable vehicles. End result - more demand at better margins and a cultural advantage over Big Auto to drive vehicle innovation and not design compromise as a profit center.

There is almost nothing that I can point to that has not been thought out from the ground up as the best way to do something rather than some iteration or tradition of the old way of doing things.
 
@Monsoon, that is kind of you.

OK. I have been looking into this Simon Sproule hire because this is an area that absolutely fascinates me.

There is something special here. First of all, this man is very bright.

Back in what must be 2009, Sproule produced a piece of disruptive innovation at Nissan in the field of marketing communications.

Essentially Sproule in-sourced the role of content creation, internal journalism and reporting if you will - actually built a studio at Nissan and enacted a policy of producing a continual stream of rounded stories from Nissan for social and mainstream media uptake.

In the context of Tesla, less so at Nissan, this kind of approach holds the key to an awesome amount of power, considering the fact that with Tesla there is a considerable amount of pre-loaded social media and online interest in the brand. In other words, an overwhelming appetite for Tesla content.

The result of that kind of approach will be a greater quantity and quality of accurate consumer education and media reporting (that will improve the demand-side fundamentals of the business globally) as well as the ability to constructively pre-empt and address disinformation attack on the business.

What I feel personally, is that the rate of expansion of the geographic footprint of the business is currently stretching the limits of Elon Musk's personal celebrity to align consumers to the theme and purpose of the Tesla. It is also true that to an audience for which a 70K + EURO vehicle is an extravagance regardless of merit, the life story and humanitarian aspirations of the $Billionaire behind it can get hard to relate to at a distance, especially amongst cultures where the American dream is alien if not positively noxious from a marketing standpoint. In these instances it can be valuable for the corporate persona of a caring an innovative company to take the lead from the personality cult of a caring an innovative $Billionaire. Most Brits for example came to take an interest in Steve Jobs via a positive experience with Apple and not vice versa.

I also feel that it is due if not overdue to level a disciplined and strategic mass-communications infrastructure at what will undoubtedly be a battleground for hearts and minds between the greater good that Tesla stands to do, and the tragic countermeasures against that good emanating from special interests to ignorance to malice that will escalate as Tesla starts to threaten to take meaningful market share from Big Auto and Big Oil.
 
Seriously Julian, the best words I've seen given to the subject of what Tesla has accomplished, it's strategic advantage and future potential, a beautiful read! - deep bow to you -

@FANGO

To your first point, as soon as Tesla gives away a franchise then the US auto dealer associations have got their hooks into Tesla. Right now they cannot claim to have done a single thing to earn a piece of Tesla's action. They never (intentionally) marketed Tesla and they never put a penny of investment into Tesla new vehicle inventory.

To your second point. Dealers are way ahead of Big Auto execs in identifying the danger from Tesla. If Big Auto operated their own sales and customer interactions they would be in possession of the same warning signals. Yes the brand dominance of Tesla, but also the technological advantage.

What Tesla has done technologically, is definitely beyond the capabilities in evidence across of Big Auto. The motor and control system is not the same as any other EV on the road. Every other EV on the road is using some variety of permanent magnet DC brushless system because the control systems for an infinitely variable speed and torque AC Induction system with the efficiencies achieved by Tesla are at the limit of modern power engineering. The twin AC induction system for the Model X is on another level beyond that.

As for batteries, Tesla has a battery that exists in a 5 star safety approved vehicle at approaching double the energy density and approaching half the cost per KWh achieved by any other EV on the road. It is very, very difficult to do this owing to the fact that as energy densities go up, so does the potential for something to go catastrophically wrong. Unlike a tank of gasoline that contains a preponderance of fuel and a fraction of the amount of air to burn that fuel completely, a charged battery is effectively a mixture of fuel and all of the oxidiser required to burn it. The higher the energy density the greater the propensity for trouble. Tesla has combatted this with, again, a masterpiece of engineering with layer after layer of safety systems, control systems, thermal management and fault-tolerance. It is very difficult for any cell in a Tesla pack to experience failure and very difficult indeed for the failure of one cell to spread to the next, and more difficult still for one failed module of cells to negatively affect additional modules, even following the direct intrusion of a metal object that would have exposed the contents of a gasoline tank to all the oxidiser in the world. This is a level of engineering that is significantly beyond that which has been shown to exist in Big Auto, which is why Tesla has not only the safest and longest range EV with performance approaching that of significantly more expensive supercars. The fact that Tesla now has the confidence both technologically and in terms of projected demand for its products to compound its first mover advantage by setting out to double the worlds battery supply capacity under its own control is no small hint either. To answer your point directly - even if there was some way around Tesla's safety and thermal management patents, just putting what is now 260Wh/Kh 18650s in a vehicle is not on the cards as a simple method of competing with Tesla. That is before we get into Tesla's patents for hybrid metal-air.

The fully firmware driven car - from drivetrain characteristics, to suspension, to climate control, to security, infotainment, navigation, peer-to-peer communication, over the air diagnostics and servicing, predictive servicing alerts, back to base SOS, even running apps for goodness sake, is an accomplishment on a par with iOS - Tesla has built its own Linux Kernel "tOS" to run the car. The fact that Tesla can run an iOS emulator to run iOS apps if it felt like it (on top of the operating system of the car) is Silicon Valley vs Detroit level of streets ahead. Apparently SAP was not good enough to build Tesla's back-office systems behind its web site, engineering, accounts and CRM so Tesla built its own ERP system. Big Auto is in a different century (a previous one) when it comes to IT capability. Building that kind of strength behind a low cost sensor suite from Mobileye promises to deliver exactly what Musk has been talking about: The world's first commercial, significantly autonomous vehicle, leapfrogging anything we have seen to date with park assist, adaptive cruise, lane change avoidance and so on.

The brand advantage that Tesla enjoys is not built on Superbowl ads (obviously) or any other kind of ephemeral marketing ploy. It is the result of unbelievable engineering to create an unbelievable product as well as unbelievable innovations in business model and customer care. Simple example: Not for profit servicing, a business innovation that is aligned to customer satisfaction and building reliable vehicles. End result - more demand at better margins and a cultural advantage over Big Auto to drive vehicle innovation and not design compromise as a profit center.

There is almost nothing that I can point to that has not been thought out from the ground up as the best way to do something rather than some iteration or tradition of the old way of doing things.
 
@FANGO

The fully firmware driven car - from drivetrain characteristics, to suspension, to climate control, to security, infotainment, navigation, peer-to-peer communication, over the air diagnostics and servicing, predictive servicing alerts, back to base SOS, even running apps for goodness sake, is an accomplishment on a par with iOS - Tesla has built its own Linux Kernel "tOS" to run the car. The fact that Tesla can run an iOS emulator to run iOS apps if it felt like it (on top of the operating system of the car) is Silicon Valley vs Detroit level of streets ahead. Apparently SAP was not good enough to build Tesla's back-office systems behind its web site, engineering, accounts and CRM so Tesla built its own ERP system. Big Auto is in a different century (a previous one) when it comes to IT capability. Building that kind of strength behind a low cost sensor suite from Mobileye promises to deliver exactly what Musk has been talking about: The world's first commercial, significantly autonomous vehicle, leapfrogging anything we have seen to date with park assist, adaptive cruise, lane change avoidance and so on.

.

Thanx JC for your post, most of which i think is spot on. I tend to disagree on the part of the autonomous car. Mercedes Benz just completed successfully (Neue Zürcher Zeitung 13.3.2014) a trip from Stuttgart to Pforzheim without a driver. We have not yet seen anything from Tesla on autonomous driving car but announcements from EM. Which i think is perfect, since it will be the field of the future. Here the other manufacturers are not sleeping.
I totally agree, that Tesla is miles ahead when it comes to EV's. I have the feeling, that other manufacuters are trying to avoid the competition, bringing some of the plus points of Tesla to their cars in a different way. Hence the bigger touchscreens and integration of iOS and other details as seen at the Geneva Motor Show. It won't be long and we will see a copy of the doorhandles à la Model S. At least in Europe they might be successful with this strategy, because for most people the real advantage of a long range EV (meaning TMS) is not yet visible, and the SC Network has to be much denser to be viable. In other words, Europe still didn't got it. This will IMO strengthen the position of Tesla in the long run, widening the gap. In the short term, sales will continue to disapoint (at least my expectations).
Tesla has strong competition, but the battle is not faught on the field but behind the scenes. It appears, that Big Oil and Big Car make it difficult for Tesla to find locations for SC and Service Centers ( yes this is a conspiracy theory, based on rumours, but from sources i have no reason not to trust).
Based on this feeling i would not be surprised to see further pressure on TSLA the stock, until really positiv news bring it back on a upward channel.
 
@100thMonkey - thanks.

As I said earlier

"There is almost nothing that I can point to that has not been thought out from the ground up"

Well there was something: That was the over-exposure to inaccurate misreporting in the mainstream news media and online and basically permitting speculation on several topics from environmental credentials to demand figures to descend outright FUD attack in an information vacuum. (Not complaining when the result is an engineered short squeeze to pay for a big factory but sometimes I can't help but feel that a less volatile media cycle would be an aid to the pace of consumer adoption now that they have the cash to bring forward additional Model S production capacity to absorb it).

Tesla has just found itself what must be the
only CVP of marketing from the world of Big Auto that has a plan to insource media content creation, and actually understands that success in online media is something very different from setting up a FaceBook page and buying 100K likes from a click farm.

Looks like Tesla has a decent chance of going on the offensive from April 2014 with pre-emptive in-house generated social and mainstream media information content. I like watching the SpaceX in-house web casts of their launch operations. Who would not like a regular feature virtual factory tour of Tesla with the chance of a pertinent executive comment, Supercharger unveilings, celeb vehicle hand-overs, examples of someone's solar powered Tesla villa...


- - - Updated - - -

Thanx JC for your post, most of which i think is spot on. I tend to disagree on the part of the autonomous car. Mercedes Benz just completed successfully (Neue Zürcher Zeitung 13.3.2014)

The Mercedes system looks very impressive indeed. As a matter of fact the Nissan one does not look too shabby either (although that is self-described as in its infancy with a target launch date of 2020).

What I don't know is if the Mercedes sensor suite is commercially affordable (or any target date for launching it at any price). What I do know is that Mercedes head of electronics Harald Kroeger is on Tesla's board.

It is therefore hard to imagine that Musk is claiming the likely ability to come to market with a system ahead of a program controlled by one of his own board members without having his facts straight.
 
Tesla has strong competition, but the battle is not faught on the field but behind the scenes. It appears, that Big Oil and Big Car make it difficult for Tesla to find locations for SC and Service Centers ( yes this is a conspiracy theory, based on rumours, but from sources i have no reason not to trust).
Based on this feeling i would not be surprised to see further pressure on TSLA the stock, until really positiv news bring it back on a upward channel.

They just raised $2 Billion last week. While there may be conspiring on the part of big Car and Big Oil to push them down, money talks and Tesla has a lot to spend. I don't personally see this as one of the big risks to TSLA. More risky I think is executing their business plans in a timely manner. If S ramp up, X development, gigabattery factory buildout, or Model E dev. slips much against published timelines TSLA could correct. This is my biggest concern.