Nema 14-50 cost

[qdeathstar]

Curious question, for real. You have talked about how the load calculations would be different if it were a welder or an EVSE. I know that the methods are different, but as far as I know, they yield the same number.

It uses 100% value of the non-constant loads + 125% of the constant loads on that branch circuit. It's one outlet with one item, so it's just going to be one of those things on either side of the + sign. The welder you take as a non-constant 50A appliance for 100% of 50A = 50A. A Clipper Creek or somesuch EVSE on that outlet is 125% of 40A = 50A. They are different methods, but I'm not seeing how the 50A or 50A would affect the load calculation differently.

The welder doesn’t draw 50 amps.

.

.... if whether the new 50A circuit is continuous or not determines whether you need a new panel or not... then you need a new panel. Lets say it was for a welder... and a year later they got an EV. Think they'll do a load calc on their panel before plugging in?

no, but that is irrelevant. You are essentially saying two wrongs make a right.

Also, like I said the quality of the outlet matters.

 

[nwdiver]

no, but that is irrelevant. You are essentially saying two wrongs make a right.

Also, like I said the quality of the outlet matters.

It's wrong to be conservative? If the panel you're adding a 50A circuit to is only big enough if the load isn't continuous it would be wrong to upgrade the panel? And how often would that happen? ~99.9% of the time it's either too small regardless of load or has more than enough capacity. Have you ever even seen a condition like that? 'Well.... if this was a continuous load we'd need to upgrade your panel.... BUUUT since it's not you're right on the edge of acceptability...' And in that situation you wouldn't recommend an upgrade?

 

[qdeathstar]

It's wrong to be conservative? If the panel you're adding a 50A circuit to is only big enough if the load isn't continuous it would be wrong to upgrade the panel? And how often would that happen? ~99.9% of the time it's either too small regardless of load or has more than enough capacity. Have you ever even seen a condition like that? 'Well.... if this was a continuous load we'd need to upgrade your panel.... BUUUT since it's not you're right on the edge of acceptability...' And in that situation you wouldn't recommend an upgrade?

I would explain the differences to you.

Also, since it’s a welder I would be a lot more comfortable with saying it would work and be safe, since it’s duty cycle is very limited, especially when you compare it to a ev charger. it’s only n and in use for a few minutes in an hour, usually only once in a while. A EV is everyday for 6-8 hours a day. It’s not that hard to understand.

 

[qdeathstar]

No. I'm calling bull on your bull. This has been tested and proven multiple times. People have tested this and not in the way you are theorizing with apples to elephants with different electrical companies. They have had people call the exact same company to quote the exact same job but gotten 2X to 5X more expensive when the electrician finds out it is for a Tesla. Some companies won't do that, but a huge number of them do.

I don’t think that is true.

couple months ago with you repeatedly and incorrectly recommending people use 6 gauge Romex for 60A circuits.

no I didnt. I said it was permissible to put 6 guage Romex on a 60 amp breaker in some cases. You were making a blanket statement that was untrue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I know silly, that’s why it doesn’t matter if it’s an EV or a welder as far as pricing goes, I’m gonna charge you the max either way.

I don’t need to see a Tesla to know you have money. And besides how much money you have isn’t the limiting factor of my price, what another qualified electrician will do it for is.

You may think that way, but apparently many electricians don't. If you ask them to install something for an EV, I've seen in other threads that they do charge more than if you ask them to install the same thing, but don't tell them it's for an EV. And it has nothing to do with the labor or parts increasing (you can check they use the same), just that they feel they can charge you more if it's for an EV.

 

[nwdiver]

I would explain the differences to you.

Also, since it’s a welder I would be a lot more comfortable with saying it would work and be safe, since it’s duty cycle is very limited, especially when you compare it to a ev charger. it’s only n and in use for a few minutes in an hour, usually only once in a while. A EV is everyday for 6-8 hours a day. It’s not that hard to understand.

Really? So if someones panel could support an additional 40A for a few minutes but not a few hours you would not recommend an upgrade? Can you provide a specific example of where you've encountered this? That the customer was fine adding the circuit but only because it wasn't intended to be a continuous load. Shouldn't the assumption be made that since it's a plug... that something could be unplugged and something else plugged in?

 

[qdeathstar]

Really? So if someones panel could support an additional 40A for a few minutes but not a few hours you would not recommend an upgrade? Can you provide a specific example of where you've encountered this? That the customer was fine adding the circuit but only because it wasn't intended to be a continuous load. Shouldn't the assumption be made that since it's a plug... that something could be unplugged and something else plugged in?

The real difference is that I wouldn’t be willing to do it without upgrading the panel for an ev charger but I might for a welder.

It’s not necessary or even useful to assume the maximum possible load on every outlet throughout the house.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Really? So if someones panel could support an additional 40A for a few minutes but not a few hours you would not recommend an upgrade? Can you provide a specific example of where you've encountered this? That the customer was fine adding the circuit but only because it wasn't intended to be a continuous load. Shouldn't the assumption be made that since it's a plug... that something could be unplugged and something else plugged in?

To be fair to @qdeathstar, I've done load calculations for PG&E (local power company) for adding new service and they do it based on the actual appliance load (basically you generate a list of appliances, lights, etc, you find max power that is drawn for each one and get a total). It is not based on assuming every outlet will have a maximum load plugged into it. Of course there is some wiggle room added, but in general it is not based on assuming you max out the circuit. If the load calculation was instead done based on plugging in a max load in every single outlet (like for example a space heater in every single 110V outlet that would be installed in the house), there is no way the typical 100A or 200A service is going to be enough for people.

In circuit breaker panels, it's similar. If you fill up the panel and assume each breaker is using the max allowable load, it is very easy to overload the panel. That's why you have to do a load calculation (based on actual load) in the first place. And yes, you leave some margin to account for people plugging in bigger loads than expected, but that margin is not the same as assuming every outlet connected to the panel will have a max load plugged in.

Edit: And to make it relevant, I'm going to install my own 14-50 in an existing subpanel in my garage and yes, I bothered to do a load calculation. I can't just assume just because there is a empty slot available in that panel that can fit a 50A breaker that I won't overload the panel using my Mobile Connector on it, and no, I did not assume that the other slots are maxing out their breaker either (I actually traced to see what each breaker is connected to and looked up the max draw for each appliance connected).

 

[nwdiver]

To be fair to @qdeathstar, I've done load calculations for PG&E (local power company) for adding new service and they do it based on the actual appliance load (basically you generate a list of appliances, lights, etc, you find max power that is drawn for each one and get a total). It is not based on assuming every outlet will have a maximum load plugged into it. Of course there is some wiggle room added, but in general it is not based on assuming you max out the circuit. If the load calculation was instead done based on plugging in a max load in every single outlet (like for example a space heater in every single 110V outlet that would be installed in the house), there is no way the typical 100A or 200A service is going to be enough for people.

In circuit breaker panels, it's similar. If you fill up the panel and assume each breaker is using the max allowable load, it is very easy to overload the panel. That's why you have to do a load calculation (based on actual load) in the first place. And yes, you leave some margin to account for people plugging in bigger loads than expected, but that margin is not the same as assuming every outlet connected to the panel will have a max load plugged in.

As long as you have a 32A UMC like ~99% of people do now it won't matter anyway since 32A continuous would count the same as a 40A welder. So tell them it's for a welder and shoot for the discount

 

[qdeathstar]

As long as you have a 32A UMC like ~99% of people do now it won't matter anyway since 32A continuous would count the same as a 40A welder. So tell them it's for a welder and shoot for the discount

now we are moving the goal posts.... you aint getting that discount Steve.

 

[nwdiver]

now we are moving the goal posts.... you aint getting that discount Steve.

What goal posts? 40A Continuous = 32A non-continuous in a load calc. Yes? What's the ampacity of the UMC that comes with a Tesla? This whole silly bit started with the idea that it somehow matters what you tell the electrician the 14-50 is for in ways other than cost. The fact you're almost certainly not going to pull >32A just furthers that

 

[nwdiver]

you aint getting that discount Steve.

If people would pay me 10k to install their chargers I would charge them 10k. If they would pay me a million dollars I would charge them a million.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if you see a $120k plaid S in the driveway you're probably gonna think they're gonna be willing to pay more than a kid that wants to practice his TIG. If they would pay $2k you'd charge $2k... if they would pay $500 you'd charge $500.... which is which?

 

[qdeathstar]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if you see a $120k plaid S in the driveway you're probably gonna think they're gonna be willing to pay more than a kid that wants to practice his TIG. If they would pay $2k you'd charge $2k... if they would pay $500 you'd charge $500.... which is which?

No one will pay 2K. Unless they are stupid.

 

[nwdiver]

No one will pay 2K. Unless they are stupid.

NOW we are moving the goal posts. You don't think someone with a $120k car would pay more for a 14-50 than some kid that just wants a welder? You would charge what they would pay.... right?

 

[qdeathstar]

NOW we are moving the goal posts. You don't think someone with a $120k car would pay more for a 14-50 than some kid that just wants a welder? You would charge what they would pay.... right?

Whatever they will pay me, yes. But unless the guy with a 120K car is an idiot he won’t pay more because he can shop around. And in any case, if he has a 120K car there will be other signs of his wealth so owning a Tesla wouldn’t be the reason anyway.

 

[nwdiver]

Whatever they will pay me, yes. But unless the guy with a 120K car is an idiot he won’t pay more because he can shop around. And in any case, if he has a 120K car there will be other signs of his wealth so owning a Tesla wouldn’t be the reason anyway.

So just to be clear... you would quote a wealthier person higher for the same 14-50 because they would be able to pay more?

 

[qdeathstar]

So just to be clear... you would quote a wealthier person higher for the same 14-50 because they would be able to pay more?

They will not pay more though. Just because the are rich doesn’t mean they will pay more..... in fact, rich people actually seem to weesel their way out of paying more often they poor people.

Poor people want to pay as a form of pride, rich people not so much. Least that has been my experience.

 

[nwdiver]

Just because the are rich doesn’t mean they will pay more.....

But.... you would quote them higher if you thought they would pay more...

 

[qdeathstar]

But.... you would quote them higher if you thought they would pay more...

But they won’t. Any anyone who thinks someone will pay more because the dude owns a Tesla is foolish. Hence your boy talking about how someone was quoted multiple prices for the same job. If I quoted someone 2000 because I thought they could pay that much they’d just get another price and pay $650.

I didn’t say I charge as much as they can afford, I said I charge a much as I can. It’s two different things.

 

[nwdiver]

But they won’t. Any anyone who thinks someone will pay more because the dude owns a Tesla is foolish. Hence your boy talking about how someone was quoted multiple prices for the same job. If I quoted someone 2000 because I thought they could pay that much they’d just get another price and pay $650.

I didn’t say I charge as much as they can afford, I said I charge a much as I can. It’s two different things.

You said you would charge as much as they would pay. This is a lot of people... and electricians are aware.