New Model S January 2021

[Galinette]

For those not wanting to read the entire article, it basically says that Tesla achieves their higher than competition range via:

1. tight vertical integration
2. allowing customers to push the batteries to their limits, allowing Tesla to advertise and sell almost 43% more range than they are willing to cover under warranty

Point 2 is basically bullshit, and the article contradicts itself... If you take the article figures, the Audi e-Tron has a 9.2% reserve, while the Long Range S has a 6.1% reserve. OK it's smaller, but more subtle than "Unlike other automakers such as Audi, Toyota, or Mercedes, Tesla gives drivers access to the entire pack capacity."

And, most EV car makers (including Audi) have the same 70% capacity warranty. So basically, point 2 can be applied to any car manufacturer. Remember that 1/0.7 = 1.428, this is where the "43% more range" comes from.

 

[whitex]

Point 2 is basically bullshit, and the article contradicts itself... If you take the article figures, the Audi e-Tron has a 9.2% reserve, while the Long Range S has a 6.1% reserve. OK it's smaller, but more subtle than "Unlike other automakers such as Audi, Toyota, or Mercedes, Tesla gives drivers access to the entire pack capacity."

I think you are confusing two different numbers. There are two different "reserves", the minimum discharge state - none of the manufacturers allow complete discharge to 0% state of charge (that would instantly kill the battery), and the maximum state of charge, which Tesla allows 100% while Audi only 90.8%. The minimum SOC buffer varies in Tesla models (e.g. my 85KWh battery was a marketing BS like the 691hp, it's actually just under 82KWh and it won't let me discharge below 5KWh, so I got to use ~77KWh when it was new). I'm not sure what the minimum SoC is on an e-tron. Tesla has no maximum SoC buffer in new cars (though they did add it to some old 85 batteries after few caught on fire), Audi has 9.2%.

And, most EV car makers (including Audi) have the same 70% capacity warranty. So basically, point 2 can be applied to any car manufacturer. Remember that 1/0.7 = 1.428, this is where the "43% more range" comes from.

Not exactly, 2 reasons:

1. not allowing charging to 100% reduces the battery wear and tear so lower degradation over time
   
2. not allowing charging to 100% leaves some buffer that over time they can start allowing closer to 100% to compensate for the lost range (speeding up wear, but already old battery)

You could argue Tesla allows the users to wear out their cars faster, sure, but:
a) that screws up used car values as you have no clue how many times the previous owner charged to 100%
b) as per article, that is why Tesla cars can achieve longer range - at a cost of wearing out the battery faster

PS> Not allowing the 100% SOC also has a nice side-effect, charging to full on Tesla is painfully slow, the other guys avoid it by setting full to 90%, so charging is no trickling in towards the end of the charge cycle.

 

[Galinette]

I think you are confusing two different numbers. There are two different "reserves", the minimum discharge state - none of the manufacturers allow complete discharge to 0% state of charge (that would instantly kill the battery), and the maximum state of charge, which Tesla allows 100% while Audi only 90.8%. The minimum SOC buffer varies in Tesla models (e.g. my 85KWh battery was a marketing BS like the 691hp, it's actually just under 82KWh and it won't let me discharge below 5KWh, so I got to use ~77KWh when it was new). I'm not sure what the minimum SoC is on an e-tron. Tesla has no maximum SoC buffer in new cars (though they did add it to some old 85 batteries after few caught on fire), Audi has 9.2%.

The SoC in % has no physical meaning anyway... It's only a user-friendly feature for knowing where you are between the full user-allowed charge (defined as 100%) and the empty user-allowed discharge (defined as 0%)
The only thing that matters is the voltage. How 0% and 100% voltages are defined may vary between manufacturers, and this is how the margin/reserve is defined. So you just can't compare the SoCs of two different cars. If you bring me sourced voltage limit figure comparison between Tesla and Audi, then we can discuss about buffers...

And also, I maintain that since Audi warranties its battery to 70% capacity, you can say that Audi advertises the range to 43% than what their battery warranty covers...

We'll see in a few years what the degradation curve is on a e-Tron...

 

[whitex]

I maintain that since Audi warranties its battery to 70% capacity,

Where did you find this number? Do you have a link?

 

[Galinette]

Where did you find this number? Do you have a link?

Here, on an Audi owners forum, an user got a response from its service center:
e-tron Battery Inspection

I have looked for official Audi warranty documents. I have found this:
https://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audiadaptive/PDFs/FV-Audi-New-Warranty-Terms.pdf

Gradual reduction in battery capacity over time is a normal feature of high voltage batteries and does not constitute a defect under the terms of this warranty, as long as the reduction in capacity is not in excess of the value specified for your vehicle in the owner's manual

However, I couldn't find any figure in the owner's manual.
2019 Audi e-tron – Owner's Manual – 310 Pages – PDF

Audi Battery FAQ specifically omitting the info:
Vehicle Warranty

It seems that Audi is very shy in giving the number...
At least, Tesla doesn't conceal it : Vehicle Warranty

Other info:
Interesting comparison but Audi is missing : Electric car battery warranties compared

VW : VW announces ID battery warranty of 70% capacity for 8 years, confirms disappointing charge rate - Electrek

 

[David_Cary]

The C&D article states that a lot of Tesla's advantage is on the efficiency side. They have been tweaking inverters, DUs etc for 8 years.
They of course also mention using more of the battery.
The interesting thing is that the really big advantage is that they treat aerodynamics very aggressively. Many of the LICE companies are beholden to shapes that aren't particularly aerodynamic. The article doesn't mention that at all (or I missed it in my skimming...)
Using the top 5-10% of the battery has problems for sure. Aerodynamics does not.
It really is a good marketing advantage to use that top portion of the battery and I am glad to have it. But it does add a little complexity to the owning experience. I am amazed how Tesla will let our 3 be set over 93% without warning. This has seemed to change over time.

 

[whitex]

At least, Tesla doesn't conceal it : Vehicle Warranty

To be fair, Tesla was concealing their number for many years. People like me were always told (only verbally) 80% original capacity, only recently (either this year or last year, I know it was after I bought my last Tesla in 2018) they finally added a hard number (70%) to the warranty.

 

[whitex]

Here, on an Audi owners forum, an user got a response from its service center:
e-tron Battery Inspection

Wouldn't it be nice if Tesla would provide such battery health reports, rather than hide real numbers from customers as much as they can? I guess they would not have been able to get away with some of their marketing lies if they did this, as people would quickly realize that for example the 85KWh battery was less than 82KWh nominal - brand new cars would have to show 3KWh degradation on delivery day or the report would have had to expose the marketing lie by showing true battery capacity.