P85D Going To Lake Tahoe

[Eevee]

I can't find statistics on NE snow tire purchasing habits, but I did find these: only 5% of tires purchased nationally are snow tires, yet 38.6% of the US population lives in the NE and Midwest. So if you assume that even 75% (not sure what you consider a critical mass) of people in the Midwest and NE own two sets of tires i.e. snow tires and regular tires, that should mean that around 14% of tires sold in the US should be snow tires. If we drop that to 50% of people in the midwest and NE, we're looking at 7%. This is assuming that they have BOTH snow and regular tires. If you assume they only have snow tires you jump up to 28% and 14% respectively

Your math assumes 100% of the population are car owners.
You're making many logical errors in this thread. From your assumption that lack of chain laws are a reflection of higher driver safety to this error above. Check your premises, then double check.

 

[Joelgjr]

Your math assumes 100% of the population are car owners.
You're making many logical errors in this thread. From your assumption that lack of chain laws are a reflection of higher driver safety to this error above. Check your premises, then double check.

I also think its ridiculous to think that if there weren't chain laws, drivers in the south west would suddenly start skidding off roads to their deaths in snow. What would actually happen is there may be a temporary increase in accidents deaths, which would be followed by changes in driver behavior in the form of driving more slowly the next next time it snows, some getting snow tires, some using chains after having a close call despite no law, and some just staying home.

 

[Super_Popular]

There's a Best Western in Truckkee that has a ton of Tesla Supercharges that did not pop up on our map when we went to Tahoe in May. There is a supercharger at a Safeway but this one is on the side of the hotel. Nice place to stay.

 

[Sandman1962]

I live in Tahoe, South Shore, and most of the time you can get by with even Performance tires. However, it there is snow or ice on the ground, you will be glad to have M+S tires. I decided to get dedicated snow tires and switch them out for my performance tires when appropriate. There is some thought that IF you have AWD AND M+S tires and you still need chains, you should stay home.

Driving in the snow : drive slower and brake way earlier

We have seen all kinds of unfortunate incidents - spin outs, inability to stop, inability to get up even the smallest of hills, etc. Just be smart and prepared.

As far as the SC up the 395, no issues at all. Rancho Cucamonga (fairly busy, you may have to wait in line), Lone Pine, Mammoth (with an incredible Starbucks around the corner), Topaz (Gardnerville) all are good with no waiting. In town, there is a SC at the Hard Rock casino - no waiting.

Driving in snow is not rocket science, but it is science - inertia and friction and kinetic energy all apply.

 

[bomquito]

I live in Tahoe, South Shore, and most of the time you can get by with even Performance tires. However, it there is snow or ice on the ground, you will be glad to have M+S tires. I decided to get dedicated snow tires and switch them out for my performance tires when appropriate. There is some thought that IF you have AWD AND M+S tires and you still need chains, you should stay home.

Driving in the snow : drive slower and brake way earlier

We have seen all kinds of unfortunate incidents - spin outs, inability to stop, inability to get up even the smallest of hills, etc. Just be smart and prepared.

As far as the SC up the 395, no issues at all. Rancho Cucamonga (fairly busy, you may have to wait in line), Lone Pine, Mammoth (with an incredible Starbucks around the corner), Topaz (Gardnerville) all are good with no waiting. In town, there is a SC at the Hard Rock casino - no waiting.

Driving in snow is not rocket science, but it is science - inertia and friction and kinetic energy all apply.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. Exactly what I was looking for, a potential Starbucks at a supercharging station. I’m set to go!

 

[Cycle11111]

We have and MX and M3-P3D and live in Truckee. Chain control is real and when control is in effect the requirement is two wheel drive and chains or four wheel drive and snow and mud rated tires. Chain control was on I-80 two weekends ago and the road conditions were bad. When I came the literal chain control roadblock in my M3 they asked about AWD drive and looked for snows and then waved me through. I saw many cars being turned around for no chains installed or not AWD and snows - there were warning signs starting in Rocklin about chain control being in effect

 

[cpa]

I always find it fascinating west coast has chain requirements. We get feet upon feet of snow for months at a time in the northeast - and have huge mountains up in NH ME VT and you can legally drive on rwd summer tires without chains. Drivers just know how to handle snow.

My point is not that we’re better drivers but rather educate yourself on driving in snow. AWD is useless for anything except accelerating. It won’t help you maintain control in turns or downhills. Chains really do help but no one in the northeast uses chains where we get real snow. What does that say...chains are used as a handicap in these warmer climates. Educate yourself how to safely drive in snow and don’t rely on chains

I have no idea how to drive in snow. So, my comments may not necessarily have any relevance. Just making a few comments and asking for comparisons.

Vermont's highest elevation in the entire state is 4,400 feet. (No disrespect, but 4,400 feet is considered the foothills out here--not huge mountains. ) Most of the time in California, the snow level does not even reach 4,400 feet of elevation, and when it does, it generally melts off within 24-36 hours. The grades on the highways can reach 7% for shorter distances, and they can average 4-5% on the western slopes over 25-40 miles and higher on the eastern slopes. Truck traffic on Interstate 80 is considerable. I have had skiers say that the snow in California is much different from snow in the east. Heavier or gooier or something. Many locations in California have a continual freezing-thawing weather pattern throughout the winter months. For example, for today, Truckee (just east of Donner Pass on I-80) has a high of 44 and a low of 15.

I accept your premise that as a whole, drivers in Vermont are much better at driving in snow over drivers in California. But I wonder if you spent three months traversing the Sierra Nevada in winter with its serpentine roads, varying grades, heavy traffic, and weather conditions that even seasoned drivers like you might change your might just a tad.

And yes, California gets real snow, too. Sometimes a lot of it! In 2016-2017 Mammoth Mountain received in excess of 600 inches of snow. I do not know how much you get in Vermont, so maybe 600 inches is a yawner of a winter for you.

 

[bomquito]

I live in Tahoe, South Shore, and most of the time you can get by with even Performance tires. However, it there is snow or ice on the ground, you will be glad to have M+S tires. I decided to get dedicated snow tires and switch them out for my performance tires when appropriate. There is some thought that IF you have AWD AND M+S tires and you still need chains, you should stay home.

Driving in the snow : drive slower and brake way earlier

We have seen all kinds of unfortunate incidents - spin outs, inability to stop, inability to get up even the smallest of hills, etc. Just be smart and prepared.

As far as the SC up the 395, no issues at all. Rancho Cucamonga (fairly busy, you may have to wait in line), Lone Pine, Mammoth (with an incredible Starbucks around the corner), Topaz (Gardnerville) all are good with no waiting. In town, there is a SC at the Hard Rock casino - no waiting.

Driving in snow is not rocket science, but it is science - inertia and friction and kinetic energy all apply.

Update from our trip (South Lake Tahoe from So-Cal roughly 450 mi with our P85D 245 mile @ 100%. Started at 100% from Riverside, stopped at Lone Pine, Mammoth and Topaz. Mammoth seems the most out of the way, however the best SC from a view, things to do, starbucks location et.c Slope within the last part of US-395N along with the cold temperature did not go well with the estimated range. The worst consumption was in a mid 600 w/mile for 50 miles straight, bringing down almost 100 miles of estimate range. Won't do that again. The range anxiety took the fun out of travelling.

 

[Sandman1962]

Update from our trip (South Lake Tahoe from So-Cal roughly 450 mi with our P85D 245 mile @ 100%. Started at 100% from Riverside, stopped at Lone Pine, Mammoth and Topaz. Mammoth seems the most out of the way, however the best SC from a view, things to do, starbucks location et.c Slope within the last part of US-395N along with the cold temperature did not go well with the estimated range. The worst consumption was in a mid 600 w/mile for 50 miles straight, bringing down almost 100 miles of estimate range. Won't do that again. The range anxiety took the fun out of travelling.

Range anxiety was an issue the first time or two I drove that route. Thereafter, I knew we would make it without an issue and would be able to skip the Topaz charger occasionally (the cell connection is nonexistent there). We have a S P90D (version 3 battery in case anyone wanted to know) and a X100D. Range anxiety in the X is zip. And honestly I have no worries with the S either, but it is a little tighter.

I think back when we had ICE and drove the same route. We honestly had some worries along the same line... "we better stop here and fill up since we don't know where the next gas station is," " can we make it up and over Kingsbury grade? we have an eighth of a tank, I think..." (I remember driving in my Toyota Venza over the grade and the range indicator was ZERO most of the way - now that's anxiety!)

Driving the current EV's takes a bit of planning and perhaps driving style adaptation. Still, I would not go back to ICE!

I'm glad you made it back safely. Was I right about the Mammoth Starbucks? (Mammoth, an apt description...)

 

[bomquito]

Range anxiety was an issue the first time or two I drove that route. Thereafter, I knew we would make it without an issue and would be able to skip the Topaz charger occasionally (the cell connection is nonexistent there). We have a S P90D (version 3 battery in case anyone wanted to know) and a X100D. Range anxiety in the X is zip. And honestly I have no worries with the S either, but it is a little tighter.

I think back when we had ICE and drove the same route. We honestly had some worries along the same line... "we better stop here and fill up since we don't know where the next gas station is," " can we make it up and over Kingsbury grade? we have an eighth of a tank, I think..." (I remember driving in my Toyota Venza over the grade and the range indicator was ZERO most of the way - now that's anxiety!)

Driving the current EV's takes a bit of planning and perhaps driving style adaptation. Still, I would not go back to ICE!

I'm glad you made it back safely. Was I right about the Mammoth Starbucks? (Mammoth, an apt description...)

That makes sense. Bigger battery means less range anxiety. What is your 90% SOC on the P90D?

On trips like this, nothing feels better than the moment you step out of the car for a charge, a starbucks is right around the corner. You are absolutely right about the starbucks there. It is actually the best part of the drive!

 

[Sandman1962]

My 90% is 234 mi... Down from 243 when new (to the best of my recollection (which is down way more than 4%!))

When going up and down to SoCal, we often take the 5 - which has many supercharging opportunities and hence less range anxiety (but more traffic anxiety). The stops are great for getting some steps in or a bit of exercise. We have a frisbee, a nerf football, and sometimes baseball gloves and a ball. I was thinking there should be a cornhole setup...

 

[bomquito]

I bought myself a xiaomi scooter for X-mas and will be exploring around when stopped at SC. This should be fun.

I've thought of those sports related activities however our son is only 11 months old. Won't be able to enjoy those games yet. I'd be fun to have him on my back through a carrier and roll around on a scooter.

 

[cpa]

Update from our trip (South Lake Tahoe from So-Cal roughly 450 mi with our P85D 245 mile @ 100%. Started at 100% from Riverside, stopped at Lone Pine, Mammoth and Topaz. Mammoth seems the most out of the way, however the best SC from a view, things to do, starbucks location et.c Slope within the last part of US-395N along with the cold temperature did not go well with the estimated range. The worst consumption was in a mid 600 w/mile for 50 miles straight, bringing down almost 100 miles of estimate range. Won't do that again. The range anxiety took the fun out of travelling.

Elevation gain saps range. Elevation gain with cold weather really, really sap range. Elevation gain with cold weather with using the cabin heater really, really, really sap range. From Mammoth Lakes, you have a short downhill to 395. Then you have mostly elevation gains with Deadman Summit and Conway Summit with little elevation loss.

Moreover the wind frequently blows from the north in that area, and you may have had a little wind resistance thrown in.

You likely would have made it easily in summer.

This is a good experience for all of us. Charge to a lot more than you would think is right when you are driving in the mountains in winter. And perhaps start out the leg driving a little more slowly that normal to see how the anticipated battery SOC compares to your estimated SOC based upon your driving style. Much easier to start out 5-7 MPH under the speed limit and then blast the last 60 miles rather than starting out driving your usual style (yeah, I know--easy and fun to do!) and then having to stop somewhere and change your underwear.

 

[Enigma32]

I don't see anybody mentioned it so I'll add it:

Turn regen to low!

The first time in the snow I didn't realize it, but that regen is like slamming the brakes and made the rear end slide out when I was otherwise driving perfectly normal. Low regen seems to work just as well but kicks in more gradually.

 

[Tony8489]

I have no idea how to drive in snow. So, my comments may not necessarily have any relevance. Just making a few comments and asking for comparisons.

Vermont's highest elevation in the entire state is 4,400 feet. (No disrespect, but 4,400 feet is considered the foothills out here--not huge mountains. ) Most of the time in California, the snow level does not even reach 4,400 feet of elevation, and when it does, it generally melts off within 24-36 hours. The grades on the highways can reach 7% for shorter distances, and they can average 4-5% on the western slopes over 25-40 miles and higher on the eastern slopes. Truck traffic on Interstate 80 is considerable. I have had skiers say that the snow in California is much different from snow in the east. Heavier or gooier or something. Many locations in California have a continual freezing-thawing weather pattern throughout the winter months. For example, for today, Truckee (just east of Donner Pass on I-80) has a high of 44 and a low of 15.

I accept your premise that as a whole, drivers in Vermont are much better at driving in snow over drivers in California. But I wonder if you spent three months traversing the Sierra Nevada in winter with its serpentine roads, varying grades, heavy traffic, and weather conditions that even seasoned drivers like you might change your might just a tad.

And yes, California gets real snow, too. Sometimes a lot of it! In 2016-2017 Mammoth Mountain received in excess of 600 inches of snow. I do not know how much you get in Vermont, so maybe 600 inches is a yawner of a winter for you.

I live in SoCal and have driven my S90D to Mammoth 13x and once to Tahoe. The Tahoe trip was in March 2017. We browsed some at Footloose in Mammoth while charging 30 minutes or so and had a nice dinner at the Atlantis in Reno getting a full charge for our time at Tahoe. Home to Reno was 9 hours elapsed time vs. 7.5 in an ICE. So that's about the distance limit for us in the Tesla. We stayed at that Best Western next to the Brockway supercharger.

No it does not snow as much in Vermont (average ~150 inches at the base and ~300 at the top of the ski areas) as in the Sierra but the key challenge of Vermont driving is probably the same as for the skiing: Major rain events followed by a hard freeze. The resulting ice is much more treacherous IMHO than a typical Sierra dump of snow. The roads in upper New England are difficult too. The Interstates run north-south and any east-west driving is on winding two lane roads. Maybe the Bostonians and New Yorkers don't use snow tires, but nearly all the VT/NH/ME skiers do. I have read that snow tires are required in Quebec, where it generally does not snow as much as in Vermont. And most of the people who actually live in Mammoth or Tahoe use snow tires in winter.

 

[Sandman1962]

I don't see anybody mentioned it so I'll add it:

Turn regen to low!

The first time in the snow I didn't realize it, but that regen is like slamming the brakes and made the rear end slide out when I was otherwise driving perfectly normal. Low regen seems to work just as well but kicks in more gradually.

Good point. There is an advantage to leaving regen in the normal setting (though I admit not ever changing the regen setting... which I will try out). And this is when going downhill, it reduces your need to brake and the potential for losing traction (which I have found to be well handled by Tesla). I used to go downhill in third gear i my old 4Runner and it is a similar experience.

 

[Sandman1962]

Just back from a visit from Tahoe to SoCal. I hope my observations support others on this forum. Teslas are really increasing in popularity. We used to stop at our "regular" superchargers and be the only ones there for the entire charge. Jump ahead two years and BAM! At least half to 3/4 full of cars charging. Manteca, Gustine, Buttonwillow, Folsom. At Kettleman City with 40 chargers, there were at least 25 cars charging. I still did not have to wait, though I see that could be coming soon. It made me happy that there are so many others enjoying the Tesla and reducing our overall carbon footprint. I also saw many trailers hauling model 3's south.

So many car manufacturers are at least planning on making EV's... I am sensing the tide may finally really be turning (still less than 1% of all sales, is that still the case?)

 

[s1rk]

Planning on going to Mammoth Lakes, CA from SoCal in a few weeks. I have the S100D running on 21". Will I need snow tires to go up there?

 

[cpa]

Planning on going to Mammoth Lakes, CA from SoCal in a few weeks. I have the S100D running on 21". Will I need snow tires to go up there?

Depends on the weather. CalTrans keeps the highways plowed. But CalTrans cannot keep up with all the snow and ice that accumulate during and after storms.

Just keep your eye on the forecast for your visit. Generally, US395 will be clear within two-three days or so of a storm, as the weather warms up enough to melt away any ice. SR203 that goes to Mammoth might be a little tricky as the elevation at Mammoth Lakes is higher and the geography is more secluded that US395. Travel during daylight hours when it is warmer.

As of right now, 1545 hours on Tuesday, Jan. 8, there are no requirements for snow tires on either highway. The storm blew through Sunday.

 

[s1rk]

Thanks! I'll just keep an eye out and hopefully won't have to buy snow tires!