Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

PG&E EPSS and generator options

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
@wwu123 Please keep us posted!

I would certainly be interested in a battery to buffer a generator output to enable long duration low power backup. I do not like to run a generator for a 0.3-0.5kW load; much better to "supercharge" a battery with the generator at close to peak load, and then shut the generator down to run the house for awhile. Quieter, and more efficient, too.

Lucky you not to have outages. 🤞 We have been having outages, though not seemingly coupled to high winds or storms. Given the back to back storms forecast for this week, we would be on generator power pretty quickly if an outage developed.

All the best,

BG
Wow, I haven't even posted my analysis yet, and you got straight to the TL;DR! That is exactly what my analysis is concluding - basically the typical base and normal loads for my home (because I have natural gas) are running the generator at only 5-10% of peak load, in this range even the fairly efficient inverter generator will have a fuel-to-AC conversion ratio of only 5-7%. By using the battery as a buffer, you can use gas/propane generator for shorter periods at higher load, I get a much higher fuel-to-AC-to-DC conversion ratio of 12-16%. Basically can stretch existing fuel supply by 3X or even more, along with much more quiet time without the gas genny all the time.

But I'm still going to go through my story in a long, meandering journey as if you didn't give away the punchline :) . ... as there are still a bunch of design limitations with my particular Anker power station, and no matter what battery/power station you choose, you'll have to work around these design considerations to optimize for your household - stay tuned!
 
  • Funny
Reactions: BGbreeder
Look forward to further updates on the unit. It would be impressive if it actually has working AC coupling (i.e. frequency shifting control of grid-tied inverters) off-grid as advertised. A potential red flag so far is that there seems to very little documentation available with no mention of AC coupling. A limitation seen in reviews is that when AC charging is on the 240V generator output is shutoff, which prevents convenient recharging from a generator during extended outages.
I am eagerly awaiting the Home Panel due to ship in March (a few months earlier than the Kickstarter had projected), a number of specs and details have been revealed about but some things will bear further testing in reality - same goes for a spate of new Home Panels coming out now for Zendure, EcoFlow (the new/improved Smart Home Panel 2), Bluetti within their respective ecosystems. FWIW, the Anker Kickstarter was apparently for marketing buzz leading up to CES in January - the F3800 units were forecast to start shipping in January per the Kickstarter rewards, actually started delivering in December, which means they were likely already on the slow boat from China before the Kickstarter even wrapped up. They've already showed install demos of the Home Panel, I'm sure they've also been manufactured and are undergoing final QA testing as well as UL certifications and installer documentation - I think they were also smarter to externalize the sub-panel, it's just a 100A Eaton subpanel or your choice, tried and true with off-the-shelf breakers. EcoFlow's 1st gen Smart Home Panel has had all sorts of quality issues with their choice of proprietary smart relays - yes you get some app features like smart control of individual circuit relays, but what good is it if it doesn't work (particularly in an actual outage)?

But I will probably save AC coupling for a different later thread covering the more complete on-grid capabilities of Anker vs other brands., esp once I and others have actual real-world hands-on experience The AC coupling mostly won't be relevant or even activated for backup power scenarios, so I will touch briefly here on only how the Home Panel might work with off-grid backup scenarios, which won't require any knowledge of its more advanced capabilities.

I will point out regarding the current class of portable/home power stations, so far only the Anker Solix F3800 is claiming to offer AC coupling, i.e. the battery can backfeed power while the grid is on, both to the main panel and the backup subpanel. So no AC coupling for Delta Pro, Delta Pro Ultra, Zendure, Bluetti EP800 - they can charge from a Home Panel, but can only power subpanel loads by switching it to off-grid. You have to step up to the next level of dedicated whole-home solutions coming - Anker Solix X1, Bluetti EP900, etc to see widespread AC coupling features like a Tesla Powerwall.

The compromise of AC coupling of the Solix F3800 then, is already implied through its specs - it is compatible with rooftop solar during grid-tie, can charge and discharge, where it doesn't have to frequency-shift; but in off-grid, it cuts off the main panel, and is not supported to have your roof-top solar in the backup panel - therefore no interactions are supported nor needed with grid-tie inverters. It can only support off-grid arrays feeding DC directly into its MPPT controller. I'm expecting that all of the documentation about AC coupling will be in the forthcoming manual and professional install doc/specs for the Home Panel once it is released, as the F3800 unit itself has no AC coupling itself, it is the magic in the Home Panel.

Re-charging the Solix F3800 with a generator during grid-down - already well-trodden territory how to overcome the limitations, even when outputting 240V! I will definitely be covering that in some detail here...
 
The compromise of AC coupling of the Solix F3800 then, is already implied through its specs - it is compatible with rooftop solar during grid-tie, can charge and discharge, where it doesn't have to frequency-shift; but in off-grid, it cuts off the main panel, and is not supported to have your roof-top solar in the backup panel - therefore no interactions are supported nor needed with grid-tie inverters. It can only support off-grid arrays feeding DC directly into its MPPT controller. I'm expecting that all of the documentation about AC coupling will be in the forthcoming manual and professional install doc/specs for the Home Panel once it is released, as the F3800 unit itself has no AC coupling itself, it is the magic in the Home Panel.

Thanks for the explanation. Frankly, that is not AC coupling. Many inverters can already sync to the grid and provide power in parallel with grid or charge from the grid. A great feature but that's not AC coupling. AC coupling requires having the ability to curtail power from grid-tied inverters by mechanisms such as frequency shifting (frequency-watt) or voltage shifting (volt-watt). It's unfortunate that vendors (appears to be mainly from China) are misusing the terminology.
 
Thanks for the explanation. Frankly, that is not AC coupling. Many inverters can already sync to the grid and provide power in parallel with grid or charge from the grid. A great feature but that's not AC coupling. AC coupling requires having the ability to curtail power from grid-tied inverters by mechanisms such as frequency shifting (frequency-watt) or voltage shifting (volt-watt). It's unfortunate that vendors (appears to be mainly from China) are misusing the terminology.
I'll take it that you know the proper definitions, anyways it's just what Anker terms their feature as. Anyways, it doesn't interact with grid-tie inverters in any way, perhaps "AC backfeeding" would be a proper term. Whatever it is, it is unique as the others in the product class don't claim to backfeed or load-shift this way (only by taking the loads off-grid via transfer switch). It will be a UL-listed Home Panel, we will all see exactly how it works, as well as how WELL it works, in a few months!
 
I’ll start out the analysis by characterizing my home loads as well as the power sources. Interestingly, as I progressed on the journey, I ended up with not just two, but three different power sources!

HOME LOADS

I have a pretty good handle on my base loads and typical usage loads year round with my solar and PG&E net monitoring. While I don’t have individual circuit or appliance monitoring, I do have 10 years of gross and net consumption logging.


Load ProfileDay (16h)Night (8h)Daily total
Normal733w400w15 kwh
Base400w400w10 kwh
Critical100w100w2.4 kwh


My base loads currently run about 400W at night when everyone is sleeping. Over 24 hours that’s about 10kwh/day, and that’s what I confirmed when we were away on vacation last month. During the day, we typically use an additional 5kwh, spread out fairly evenly over 16 hrs. So that’s an additional 333W on top of base loads, for 733W. This is excluding any EV charging, which we would avoid doing at home during outages.

These are fairly modest loads, so the important part of this section is to caveat that I am afforded the privilege of even contemplating different options because of my mild climate and reliable natural gas for heating and cooking. Specifically my locale has a 7-month heating season and 2-week cooling season (with no central A/C). That leads to fairly constant loads over the year - if anything, we use maybe 1-2 kwh/day more during the winter months due to the furnace (5 hrs x 120W ECM blower) and more lighting hours.

So during an outage, if we want to live as normal, we need 15 kwh/day. But if we want to conserve to stretch our fuel, we can still power the house but be sparing in our usage, and get closer to 10 kwh baseload profile.

Finally, for the zombie apocalypse or SHTF, we can contemplate limiting consumption to only critical loads - turning off all circuits except the essentials, I think we could get down to 100w average or 2.4 kwh/day. Critical loads include:
-furnace (600wh)
-refrigerator (1200wh, 2x inverter compressor)
-tankless gas water heater (240wh, ignition only)
-internet modem (100wh)
-aquarium circulation pump only (240wh)


POWER SOURCES

Gas/Propane Generator

As documented earlier in this thread, I settled on the A-iPower 7100 inverter generator with 5700W peak because of the 240V output for the BPTM whole house transfer meter, and ability to run only on propane. It can handle any of my whole-house loads except the 240V electric oven and the EV charger at full output, neither of which I’d be using in an outage.

Now people like to say fuel generators (gas/propane) are the cheapest and best for extended outages, because you have an unlimited supply of fuel available. But that is true only to a certain extent, once you have to resupply, there’s a certain inconvenience factor that has to be factored in. Since I’m running only on propane for lower maintenance, I’m limited to my 2x 20lb BBQ propane tanks before I have to go out to refill. So making that 40lb of propane stretch longer is important for convenience (and during the zombie apocalypse, it may be absolutely essential).

The 100% 5700W peak is important to mention, as the power efficiency is directly tied to the load on the generator. Now the only formal spec to work with is 0.36 gal/hr of gas per hr of runtime at 25% load (1425W), which is an efficiency of 11.7% (1 gal gas = 33.7kwh energy).

Generator Fuel-to-AC Efficiency:
10% load - 5%
12.5% load - 7%
25% load - 11.7%
50% load - 15%
66% load = 16%
80% load = 17%

How to build a profile of the efficiency across a wider range of loads? Fortunately, there is an active community of solar/battery off-gridders who have to top off their batteries during winter and clouds using gas generators. Enough of these have done efficiency tests, that I can find 11-12% efficiency at 25% load is pretty typical of decent inverter generators of various sizes that matches mine. While I didn’t find any direct load tests with my A-iPower, a range of Yamaha, Honda, Champion inverter generators yielded pretty typical efficiency curves going up to 15% at 50% load, leveling off to 16-17% efficiency around 80% load.

On the lower end, not as many data points, but enough to suggest about 5% efficiency down at 10% load - basically most of the energy is just being used to spin the motor and create waste heat, with only a small fraction being used for loads. I think for non-inverter (i.e. modified sine-wave) generators, the efficiency starts to drop off rapidly below 50% load, so at least I had the better type of generator for my loads - I could have gained efficiency if I’d opted for the smaller WEN generator (3500W), as I’d be operating at a higher load, but probably that would’ve only been 1-2 percentage points at best, and that being a non-inverter generator, only if operating above 50% load.

Off-Grid Solar Panels
OK, so this was the most unexpected part of the journey. It was not in the plans at all, but somehow I’ve ended up with 800W of portable off-grid solar panels. First, as part of the Anker Kickstarter, they offered a few bonuses to get their portable panels at a huge discount, so I opted-in just to do some experimentation. And then I won a top prize in the Facebook user community for doing some initial testing of the Anker Solix and sharing/learning with the other early adopters.

So net is that I’ve ended up with $2000 worth of off-grid solar panels for a tiny fraction of the retail price, that perfectly match the solar inputs of the Anker Solix. They’re designed for camping and offgrid - so they’re expensive but high-quality, waterproof. I’ve tested them and gotten 75% of STC on a sunny day, comparable to rigid mono panels.

Now you would think these mobile, adjustable-tilt panels would be ideal for a power outage, esp with a supplied 30-foot cable I could place them in good sunlight. Well for my house, basically in the three months around winter solstice, the neighboring oak trees shade my entire yard and driveway except for two hours a day. On the roof, I can do slightly better, but between wind, rain, and clouds - the opportunities to harvest the sun are pretty much not worth it.

The other three seasons, I can get good sun in the driveway, or even better on the roof - and since my 4kw rooftop array will be offline during an outage, I can even drape the portable panels right on top of my best-performing rigid panels for each time of year. Since I have my Enphase per-panel logs for the entire year, I can reliably predict how much power I can harvest.

So my projection is that I can reliably get 4 kwh on a sunny day, over a 6-8 hour period, during 9 months of the year. But since not every day is sunny, I’ll do all my analysis both with and without solar. 4kwh/day is not huge, but not insignificant during an outage, especially with my base loads. It does require the power station to be functional, but who says this is not a “solar generator” - with solar panels it is absolutely one!

Battery Power Station
I picked the Anker Solix F3800 from the emerging crop of portable/home power stations because of the 240V compatibility with the BPTM transfer meter - my other options would have been the Zendure Superbase V or 2x EcoFlow Delta Pro (Delta Pro Ultra was not announced til after I’d picked the Anker). I decided on Anker because of the Kickstarter discount, and the expectation of quality, reliability, customer support and longevity (the company, not just the product) - so far they’re living up to expectations.

It’s a nominal 3.8 kwh battery - not sure if 100% is usable, haven’t figured out if they’ve reserved top and bottom buffers yet, but will use 3840Wh as the baseline for analysis. There were some early Youtube load tests, but they were on prototype samples. It’s also 6000W (9000W surge), so can handle even higher loads than my gas/propane generator - it has no problems charging my Tesla at 25A, if I desire to do so, the battery capacity just doesn’t last too long doing that.

Now power stations are also far from being 100% efficient. Anker does not specify any roundtrip efficiency figures like Tesla Powerwall does, but even if they did, I wouldn’t necessarily use them, as those figure are based on several key assumptions. What I have done is some basic testing to try to model the overhead losses for power outages scenarios.

On the discharge side, there is overhead to run the basic electronics, and additional inverter losses anytime the AC is on. Based on some cursory testing, I think I’ve narrowed these to 10W for just powered-on (or with DC output on), and additional 60W for powering the 6000W inverter, regardless of load or 120V/240V.

On the charging side, we’ll assume the battery is full before any outage starts, but once the 3.8kwh is depleted, it must be re-charged from the other two sources - generator or solar. The inverter is bi-drectional, so will also have the 60W inverter overhead when charging from AC (120 or 240) as well. However, AC is not the only way to charge it, and necessarily for some of my scenarios, I need to be able to charge from the DC (solar) inputs. I’m using the following charging efficiencies:
Solar DC to DC input to battery: 100% (there are some losses, but I’m factoring the 4kwh/day from solar above as the net to battery after small converter/charging losses)
Generator AC to AC input to battery: 96% (this uses the internal inverter with 70W overhead factored into 1800W charge rate)
Generator AC to DC input to battery: 93% (via Chargeverter)

Because the Solix F3800 has only a single bi-directional inverter, it cannot charge from AC while outputting 240V to the house. Therefore, the only way to re-charge from the propane generator is by using a hybrid solar inverter, “chargeverter” or switched-mode power supply. The EG4 Chargeverter is a rather new product, but gaining huge following among the DIY crowd for charging solar batteries from a generator - inside is simply two 98% telco-grade rectifiers that can take even dirty generator power and turn it into clean DC power with overall demonstrated 93% efficiency. Cheaper would be 120V or 240V switched-mode power supplies, depending on quality could be as low as 80% efficient or less.

Next up, will be using one, two, or all three power sources together in different usage modes, and looking at the efficiency and convenience of each mode. Basically the overall efficiency of each mode results in how long my 2x20lb propane tanks will last me in hours or days, before I have to go do a refueling run. The convenience will be tradeoffs just how often I have to refuel, against whether I can run household as normal, or have to cut back to base/critical loads, plus other potential hassle factors.
 
OK, maybe today's going to be the day.... power just went out to 2000 homes, but just a 1/2 block shy of us. My wife's doing grocery shopping and 1000 homes adjacent to the shopping center are out, meanwhile my daughter's volleyball practice this evening cancelled as another outage area around the gym....

outage_map_2024_02.jpg


Stormwatch mode, DIY Powerwall style ... topping up to 100%. BPTM cable out of storage and nearby, because I keep forgetting where the last place I moved it for storage (that I thought surely I'd easily remember....)

stormwatch_2024_02.jpg
 
Last edited:
After dealing with the effects of the big storm the past several days, including somewhat related incidents of a family member's fractured thumb and a nail in tire from road debris, can finally write up the analysis of the numbers I'd crunched last week. Still all theoretical though, as we just barely eluded a 5-hour outage that hit 2000 of our neighbors....

Since the main site here is an electric vehicle forum, thought it might be apt to name the various backup mode options with analogies to electric and hybrid cars.

Gas Mode

Starting with traditional gas/propane generator-only approach

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400WN/A26.4hMedium (re-fueling)
Base400W400WN/A32hMedium (re-fueling)
Critical100W100WN/A32h?Low

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up and just plug-in for whole-house power
+Handles all household loads easily except for electric oven (including EV charging at 25A if needed)
+Convenient for outages of a day or less
-Have to cut power briefly while switching tanks 2X/day
-Low fuel efficiency at normal and base loads, <10% fuel-to-AC ratio
-Need to spend an hour EVERY day refueling propane tanks for longer outages
-Can alleviate some hassles after 24 hrs by using gasoline, but then longer-term maintenance tasks
-Dropping down to critical loads probably doesn’t help extend runtimes much if at all due to low generator effiiciency

EV Mode

Next up, purely using just battery power


Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400WN/A4.73h (day)Medium (<1 day)
Base400W400WN/A8.17hMedium (<1 day)
Normal w/solar733W400WN/A9.76h (day)Medium (<1 day)
Base w/solar400W400WN/A16.6hMedium (<1 day)

Pros & Cons:
+Extremely easy to set up and just plug-in for whole-house power
+Very quiet
+Handles all household loads easily except for electric oven (including EV charging at 25A if needed, though limited range)
+Convenient for typical short outages of 4-8 hrs or less
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Can maybe double runtime with solar on a sunny day
-Can’t charge from generator AC while outputting 240V (not a limitation of all power stations
-Becomes a doorstop once battery is depleted, must take offline while charging (if even possible to charge during outage)

EV_mode_small.jpg


PHEV Mode

Parallel hybrid swapping between generator and battery (basically alternating the previous two modes)

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal 1x switch733W400W1800W35.3hMedium
Base 1x switch400W400W1800W42.9hMedium
Normal w/solar733W400W1800W2.3 daysMedium
Base w/solar400W400W1800W3.3 daysHigh
Normal 3x switch733W400W1800W2.2 daysMedium-Low
Base 3x switch400W400W1800W3.2 daysMedium-Low
Normal, solar, 3x sw733W400W1800W2.9 daysMedium
Base, solar, 2x sw400W400W1800W4.2 daysHigh

Pros & Cons:
+Basically alternating battery and generator, both easy to set up and plug in
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Runtimes longer than battery or generator alone, as generator sometimes running at higher efficiency
+Solar can extend runtimes meaningfully
-Need to cut power 2x/day to swap between battery and generator (1x switch daily)
-Still need to spend an hour getting fuel EVERY day or so if only swapping daily
-Runtimes can be extended, but requires cutting power to swap multiple times/day
-Generator noise running 16 hrs during day, can increase quiet times but requires much more swapping
PHEV_day_mode_small.jpg


EREV Mode

Series-hybrid approach where battery always powers house, generator only recharges battery

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400W1200W2.1 daysMedium-High
Base400W400W1200W2.8 daysMedium-High
Normal w/solar733W400W1200W2.9 daysHigh
Base w/solar400W400W1200W4.3 daysHigh
Normal 2x charger733W400W2400W2.5 daysMedium-High
Base 2x chgr400W400W2400W3.4 daysHigh
Normal, solar, 2x ch733W400W2400W3.3 daysHigh
Base, solar, 2x chgr400W400W2400W5.2 daysHigh

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up just once for whole-house power and no need to swap
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Long runtimes at least 2 days and up to 5 days
+Can decide to extend runtimes by paring usage from normal to base loads anytime without reconfiguration
+High generator efficiency, and longer quiet times
+Solar can significantly extend runtimes
+Can start/stop generator remotely anytime to top up battery, don’t have to recharge in long blocks
-Requires at least one more piece at added cost (Chargeverter or switched power supply SMPS)
-Slightly lower generator efficiency with single Chargverter while charging battery in DC mode compared to AC charging with parallel-hybrid approach (but way better than Gas only mode)
-Dual Chargeverter option would be added cost, only increases generator efficiency 1-2 percentage points

EREV_mode_small.jpg


EREV Mode with Home Panel Partial Home Backup

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Critical100W100W3800W10.0 daysMedium-High
Critical w/solar100W100W3800WIndefinitelyMedium-High

Not shipping yet, but Home Panel has features for a backup load center (sub-panel) for critical loads, with these key capabilities:
-Automatic transfer switch (ATS), that will act as a gateway to cut off the main panel, and power the critical loads from battery; will reconnect to main-panel if latter is energized
-Only the critical loads will be powered by the battery in backup mode, not any loads on the main panel
-When it senses “grid” power on the main panel, it can recharge from from 240V AC at high 3800W rate

Single fixed config would be Solix F3800 plugged into Home Panel, gas/propane generator into BPTM (for whole-house). House would mainly run just critical loads in backup load center, but whole-house power available anytime when generator is on to recharge battery (only 1 hr per day needed).

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up and no need to swap cables
+Auto-switch from critical loads to full-house power anytime merely by remotely turning on generator, no reconfiguration
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Highest generator efficiency by always using around 70% load
+Longest quiet times during daytime hours, only 1 hr generator needed per day
+Long runtimes at least 10 days before refueling
+Can start/stop generator remotely anytime to top up battery, don’t have to recharge in long blocks
+Solar can significantly extend runtimes, perhaps indefinitely on sunny days
-Significant compromises to lifestyle by leaving most home circuits off (non-critical) - partial home backup when using battery
-Excess solar power generated on sunny day over 6-8 hrs exceeds battery capacity, would need expensive expansion battery to run indefinitely (otherwise must use generator 30 min//day)
-Battery inverter overhead (~70W) is using about 40% of battery energy at such low critical loads, though runtimes are still quite long

Conclusion

Using battery and gas/propane generator together, rather then either/or, gains the best advantages of each and allow for runtimes up to 5 times longer than just using fuel for generator alone. A series-hybrid EREV mode offers an excellent blend of runtime and convenience, though I will need one more piece of equipment (between $100-400).

When the Home Panel arrives, there is an option to set up a critical-loads only configuration, that while partial backup severely requires significant compromises to lifestyle during outages, may enable indefinitely-long runtimes - perhaps a good SHTF/zombie apocalypse mode?
 
Last edited:
Interesting comparison. One thing missing I see is not accounting for self consumption of the power station. Given the size of it I would be surprised if it's < 100W. Apparently Zendure has quite high self consumption well above 100W. Assuming 100W self consumption, the power station won't get through 8 hours of night time usage at 400W base consumption.
 
Interesting comparison. One thing missing I see is not accounting for self consumption of the power station. Given the size of it I would be surprised if it's < 100W. Apparently Zendure has quite high self consumption well above 100W. Assuming 100W self consumption, the power station won't get through 8 hours of night time usage at 400W base consumption.
It is a good point that you mention self-consumption, almost all the Youtube battery load tests just ignore the impact on real outage scenarios, in favor of - look, I can power 5 heat guns and my mitre saw at the same time!

The self-consumption is accounted for everywhere, it was one one of the first (and to me, most important) tests I did on the unit when I got it. To the best of my limited tests, it uses 10W to power the electronics, plus 60W when the inverter is on, so used 70W whenever things are powered in battery mode. So if battery-powered in Normal loads, 733W + 70W = 803W drain, for Base loads 400W + 70W = 470W drain. I described it a bit in earlier post about the power sources. It is factored into the runtimes, and into AC re-charging (which uses the same inverter) but not DC-DC re-charging (e.g. solar, Chargeverter).

But to cut my verbosity, I only really explicitly mentioned it wrt to the last Partial Home Backup scenario, because there I'm powering Critical Loads of 100W but consuming 170W drain from the battery.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: BGbreeder
Thanks for the info. Can you clarify how you determined the idle consumption? Does the comparison account for DC-AC conversion efficiency for the inverter? Assuming your 400W nighttime consumption is AC power and the inverter efficiency is 90% (optimistic at low load to max power ratio) then the DC energy consumed would be 3555WHr for 8 hours. Then assuming your 70W self consumption is DC power (best case) then the DC energy consumed would be 560Whr for 8 hours. So, the total DC energy consumption for 8 hours would be 4115Whr which is still greater than the battery capacity of 3800Whr. I look forward to actual test results but I am still skeptical that it will make it through 8 hours of 400W AC power consumption.
 
After dealing with the effects of the big storm the past several days, including somewhat related incidents of a family member's fractured thumb and a nail in tire from road debris, can finally write up the analysis of the numbers I'd crunched last week. Still all theoretical though, as we just barely eluded a 5-hour outage that hit 2000 of our neighbors....

Since the main site here is an electric vehicle forum, thought it might be apt to name the various backup mode options with analogies to electric and hybrid cars.

Gas Mode

Starting with traditional gas/propane generator-only approach

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400WN/A26.4hMedium (re-fueling)
Base400W400WN/A32hMedium (re-fueling)
Critical100W100WN/A32h?Low

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up and just plug-in for whole-house power
+Handles all household loads easily except for electric oven (including EV charging at 25A if needed)
+Convenient for outages of a day or less
-Have to cut power briefly while switching tanks 2X/day
-Low fuel efficiency at normal and base loads, <10% fuel-to-AC ratio
-Need to spend an hour EVERY day refueling propane tanks for longer outages
-Can alleviate some hassles after 24 hrs by using gasoline, but then longer-term maintenance tasks
-Dropping down to critical loads probably doesn’t help extend runtimes much if at all due to low generator effiiciency

EV Mode

Next up, purely using just battery power


Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400WN/A4.73h (day)Medium (<1 day)
Base400W400WN/A8.17hMedium (<1 day)
Normal w/solar733W400WN/A9.76h (day)Medium (<1 day)
Base w/solar400W400WN/A16.6hMedium (<1 day)

Pros & Cons:
+Extremely easy to set up and just plug-in for whole-house power
+Very quiet
+Handles all household loads easily except for electric oven (including EV charging at 25A if needed, though limited range)
+Convenient for typical short outages of 4-8 hrs or less
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Can maybe double runtime with solar on a sunny day
-Can’t charge from generator AC while outputting 240V (not a limitation of all power stations
-Becomes a doorstop once battery is depleted, must take offline while charging (if even possible to charge during outage)

View attachment 1015991

PHEV Mode

Parallel hybrid swapping between generator and battery (basically alternating the previous two modes)

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal 1x switch733W400W1800W35.3hMedium
Base 1x switch400W400W1800W42.9hMedium
Normal w/solar733W400W1800W2.3 daysMedium
Base w/solar400W400W1800W3.3 daysHigh
Normal 3x switch733W400W1800W2.2 daysMedium-Low
Base 3x switch400W400W1800W3.2 daysMedium-Low
Normal, solar, 3x sw733W400W1800W2.9 daysMedium
Base, solar, 2x sw400W400W1800W4.2 daysHigh

Pros & Cons:
+Basically alternating battery and generator, both easy to set up and plug in
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Runtimes longer than battery or generator alone, as generator sometimes running at higher efficiency
+Solar can extend runtimes meaningfully
-Need to cut power 2x/day to swap between battery and generator (1x switch daily)
-Still need to spend an hour getting fuel EVERY day or so if only swapping daily
-Runtimes can be extended, but requires cutting power to swap multiple times/day
-Generator noise running 16 hrs during day, can increase quiet times but requires much more swapping
View attachment 1015992

EREV Mode

Series-hybrid approach where battery always powers house, generator only recharges battery

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Normal733W400W1200W2.1 daysMedium-High
Base400W400W1200W2.8 daysMedium-High
Normal w/solar733W400W1200W2.9 daysHigh
Base w/solar400W400W1200W4.3 daysHigh
Normal 2x charger733W400W2400W2.5 daysMedium-High
Base 2x chgr400W400W2400W3.4 daysHigh
Normal, solar, 2x ch733W400W2400W3.3 daysHigh
Base, solar, 2x chgr400W400W2400W5.2 daysHigh

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up just once for whole-house power and no need to swap
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Long runtimes at least 2 days and up to 5 days
+Can decide to extend runtimes by paring usage from normal to base loads anytime without reconfiguration
+High generator efficiency, and longer quiet times
+Solar can significantly extend runtimes
+Can start/stop generator remotely anytime to top up battery, don’t have to recharge in long blocks
-Requires at least one more piece at added cost (Chargeverter or switched power supply SMPS)
-Slightly lower generator efficiency with single Chargverter while charging battery in DC mode compared to AC charging with parallel-hybrid approach (but way better than Gas only mode)
-Dual Chargeverter option would be added cost, only increases generator efficiency 1-2 percentage points

View attachment 1015993

EREV Mode with Home Panel Partial Home Backup

Use ProfileDay LoadNight LoadRe-gen WRuntimeConvenience
Critical100W100W3800W10.0 daysMedium-High
Critical w/solar100W100W3800WIndefinitelyMedium-High

Not shipping yet, but Home Panel has features for a backup load center (sub-panel) for critical loads, with these key capabilities:
-Automatic transfer switch (ATS), that will act as a gateway to cut off the main panel, and power the critical loads from battery; will reconnect to main-panel if latter is energized
-Only the critical loads will be powered by the battery in backup mode, not any loads on the main panel
-When it senses “grid” power on the main panel, it can recharge from from 240V AC at high 3800W rate

Single fixed config would be Solix F3800 plugged into Home Panel, gas/propane generator into BPTM (for whole-house). House would mainly run just critical loads in backup load center, but whole-house power available anytime when generator is on to recharge battery (only 1 hr per day needed).

Pros & Cons:
+Easy to set up and no need to swap cables
+Auto-switch from critical loads to full-house power anytime merely by remotely turning on generator, no reconfiguration
+Quiet battery power through night (8 hrs)
+Highest generator efficiency by always using around 70% load
+Longest quiet times during daytime hours, only 1 hr generator needed per day
+Long runtimes at least 10 days before refueling
+Can start/stop generator remotely anytime to top up battery, don’t have to recharge in long blocks
+Solar can significantly extend runtimes, perhaps indefinitely on sunny days
-Significant compromises to lifestyle by leaving most home circuits off (non-critical) - partial home backup when using battery
-Excess solar power generated on sunny day over 6-8 hrs exceeds battery capacity, would need expensive expansion battery to run indefinitely (otherwise must use generator 30 min//day)
-Battery inverter overhead (~70W) is using about 40% of battery energy at such low critical loads, though runtimes are still quite long

Conclusion

Using battery and gas/propane generator together, rather then either/or, gains the best advantages of each and allow for runtimes up to 5 times longer than just using fuel for generator alone. A series-hybrid EREV mode offers an excellent blend of runtime and convenience, though I will need one more piece of equipment (between $100-400).

When the Home Panel arrives, there is an option to set up a critical-loads only configuration, that while partial backup severely requires significant compromises to lifestyle during outages, may enable indefinitely-long runtimes - perhaps a good SHTF/zombie apocalypse mode?

I've always wondered, how do these batteries connect to the house main panel? Do you have a picture of it connecting to the main panel?

Thanks for sharing your tests!
 
I've always wondered, how do these batteries connect to the house main panel? Do you have a picture of it connecting to the main panel?

Thanks for sharing your tests!

Yes, my situation is relatively rare, but it's actually in the pictures - you might have to zoom in a bit, but the meter-integrated main panel is in the background, and PG&E BPTM (backup power transfer meter) is a meter socket behind the meter - you can only see the black BPTM cable sticking out the bottom, and then coming out to the foreground.

The power source end of the BPTM cable is a standard L14-30 twist-lock, going either directly into the Solix F3800 battery, or the gas/propane generator, depending on which backup mode I'm illustrating. So the BPTM feeds the 240V power source (battery or generator) directly into the meter socket, and thereby into the utility side of the main panel (i.e. the whole panel will be powered).


bptm_diagram.png
 
Thanks for the info. Can you clarify how you determined the idle consumption? Does the comparison account for DC-AC conversion efficiency for the inverter? Assuming your 400W nighttime consumption is AC power and the inverter efficiency is 90% (optimistic at low load to max power ratio) then the DC energy consumed would be 3555WHr for 8 hours. Then assuming your 70W self consumption is DC power (best case) then the DC energy consumed would be 560Whr for 8 hours. So, the total DC energy consumption for 8 hours would be 4115Whr which is still greater than the battery capacity of 3800Whr. I look forward to actual test results but I am still skeptical that it will make it through 8 hours of 400W AC power consumption.

I did my best to measure idle consumption (self-consumption at zero load or close to it, with both AC inverter on and off). But before I elaborate further, here's the rub, we know that self-consumption and DC-AC efficiency (or conversely, DC-AC conversion losses) are inherently related - but the exact correlation is a bit fuzzy, with both empirical data from the community and specifications from the vendors.

For example, Tesla Powerwall 3 gives you some roundtrip efficiency specs, but no idle/self-consumption specs. So when the datasheet gives you a solar-battery-grid "roundtrip" efficiency of 89%, I jump immediately to the footnotes to find that this value is only accurate at 3.3KW rate for both charge and discharge. In other words, without other key specs such as idle consumption, self-consumption, and usable (not nominal) battery capacity, we have almost no way to figure them out from just that spec, and therefore no way to know what the AC-DC or DC-AC efficiency is at any other power other the 3.3KW. Because that 89% is running through DC-AC-DC-AC conversion, three inverters, of which we only know the solar inverter DC-AC is 97%. So we have no clear idea what the efficiency of Powerwall DC-AC at 100W, 400W, or 700W load. We also have no idea if the self-consumption is being borne out of the efficiency losses (i.e. from the battery), or whether the Powerwall is grid-tied and the self-consumption is borne from the grid instead. And when it comes to idle or self-consumption, Powerwall owners have reported in this forum numbers that are all over the map, even on the same firmware, and they're not even reporting back the same apples-to-apples numbers (some are reporting idle consumption, some are reporting DC-AC losses)

Which is why when I profiled the power sources earlier, I threw in the statement "Anker does not specify any roundtrip efficiency figures like Tesla Powerwall does, but even if they did, I wouldn’t necessarily use them, as those figure are based on several key assumptions." without any explanation at all. To best leverage not just my limited testing, but all the empirical data shared by the DIY community, I concluded that shared self-consumption data is mostly an expression of idle consumption (electronics and/or AC inverter self-consumption at zero to small loads), and that DC-AC conversion efficiency is mostly an expression of all losses at moderate to high loads (i.e. you don't add idle consumption values on top, idle and non-idle self consumption are included in the conversion losses). So what do we use at small loads - do we primarily use idle consumption, or do we use available DC-AC efficiency (losses)? Small load data points are particularly scarce to find.

So in my analysis, I made the following tests and assumptions:
1) I tried to measure idle consumption by running a series of battery drain tests at zero to very small loads, where most of the battery drain is therefore by self-consumption and not loads. There are some large error bars because a full-to-empty test would take days for each test, so ran very short tests, because I was also trying to measure idle losses not just with 6000W AC inverter output, but also with no output, DC output via 12V, DC output via USB-C PD 20V, and small 120W AC inverter via DC socket.
2) Simultaneously, I was trying to back out a 2nd variable, usable battery capacity, since 3840kwh is the nominal battery capacity, not the usable capacity, by running small loads at various wattages, so that i had a matrix of load consumption data (on top of the self-consumption data). Then try to cross-check my findings against other self-reported community runtime data at higher loads, which unfortunately they're actually using their power station, so not controlling their loads as tightly.
3) I did not do direct DC-AC efficiency tests, but instead have used inverter idle-consumption as probably the largest part of DC-AC conversion losses by far. E.g. by factoring in the 60W inverter idle consumption at 100W load, I've already reduced DC-AC conversion efficiency down to 62.5%, or 58% if I factor in the additional standing 10W from the power station electronics. I totally acknowledge the AC inverter probably has additional losses at various load; I didn't try to measure them, but am open to ideas - nonetheless, if it's more than 10% of load, or on the order of the idle consumption values, it only further reinforces that oversized inverters are just a terrible inefficiency at low loads...
4) I also tried to do some sanity-checking knowing there is only a single bi-directional inverter, thereby assuming conversion losses are similar whether going AC-DC or DC-AC. I know that in charging the battery AC-DC, that external Chargeverters are 90-93% efficient, and SMPS range from 60-80% efficient, typically data points at charge rates of 1000-2400W, feeding into the DC charging ports. I made a very gross assumption that Anker at least tried to use an inverter that's closer to a Chargverter (telco-grade rectifiers) than a cheap SMPS, so the 6000W inverter is bi-directionally efficient at 90-93% at 1000W-2400W. That didn't tell me much about efficiency at low loads, but at least I factored that into the re-charging losses (borne by the generator).