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PG&E EPSS and generator options
- Thread starter wwu123
- Start date
Yup, that's the one I just found and mentioned in one of my replies last night! Seems to be quite a unique engine/model, I see no name-brand or off-brand clones. Specs are better in all respects, except being an acceptable 10 lbs heavier than the WEN. Quality and longevity unknown, but reviews say it's very quiet when it is working. And while it's not the 18" wide I was looking for, neither was the WEN - it's actually narrower at 21.5" than the WEN (23" with wheels). I've accepted I'll need to take out or move a small bush to store either of them.
I actually placed an order this morning. Just hoping for a relatively undamaged one, apparently their factory packaging can't handle the delivery abuse by UPS. If it arrives OK, I'll test it out and haul the WEN unused back to Home Depot. If it's destroyed or DOA, I'll fire up the WEN to make sure it's OK, and have Costco come back to pick up this one.
CrazyRabbit
Active Member
I decided to leave my ground to neutral bonded on my portable generator (12kw). yes I realize I now have two parallel conductors which in my opinion is safer then someone using the generator not realizing the bond doesn't exist to run power tools. I will eventually pass away and someone could unknowingly be electrocuted by a tool with a direct short to ground.
Say you have a generator with 120V receptacles, and the EGC on the receptacles is connected to the generator case, but there is no connection between the EGC/case and either circuit conductor. And you plug in a tool with a 3 prong cord that has an internal fault of one of the circuit conductors to the case. That does not create two different exposed metal surfaces with a potential between them, so I don't see the shock/electrocution hazard.
If you mean something else, please draw out the circuit diagram and show the two exposed metal surfaces at different potentials.
Cheers, Wayne
Yay, success! The A-iPower from Costco managed to arrive with no broken panels - it's got a lot of plastic housing like typically smaller inverter generators, and I could see from the choice of thin foam cushioning inside the box, how sharp impact to a side of the box could flex/crack a panel without even any damage to the outer cardboard. But perhaps since the company seems to be located in SoCal, it was drop-shipped only a six-hour truck ride away, so less opportunity for UPS to manhandle it.
Spent a good part of the day making sure it's working fine. Tested the pull-start, electric-start, remote-start all fired up immediately. Verified the floating neutral, though based on this thread no longer concerned about neutral-bonding for my use case. No means to hook up any 240V loads or test the BPTM, so did the break-in at 120V running varying loads on propane - fridge, aquarium, gaming PC, and hairdryer. Inverter + full housing + low idle mode makes for a pretty quiet unit - at 25% load, I'd say almost as quiet as my tiny 700W generator, basically can only hear it from nearest bedroom inside the house. Pure sine wave seemed good, a small UPS I plugged in didn't complain at all.
Best part, while the WEN was wider than listed (23" wheels vs 17.5" spec), the A-iPower was significantly narrower (19" actual vs 21.5 spec). Both units actually same 17.5" body width, but the A-iPower had mostly recessed wheels like a rolling suitcase. Bottom line - no shrubs have to be sacrificed for this whole endeavour
, as it can roll in and out of my preferred storage area,The WEN will go back to Home Depot brand-new, though would have been a decent alternative. By coincidence, their product support just e-mailed back yesterday with official instructions for unbonding the neutral. Sure enough, that alternator end cover is supposed to just slide off, and the one jumper wire was right there to be capped off - nice to know they officially support converting to floating neutral
Feel pretty confident that the furnace blower and any other appliances looking for proper ground should work fine with the BPTM, as they will see the same main panel ground as they currently do, and all GFCI/AFCI wiring is unmodified too. Will do a bit more break-in on the unit and then change the oil before putting it away, but almost giddy with anticipation for the next big storm....
Yeah, yeah, I know this whole thread has been a bit old-school archaic compared to a Powerwall, but it's still my shiny new toy.... thank you all for indulging me
Actually compact portable high power inverter generators only became available quite recently. Especially dual fuel ones. For perspective, just know that a 20# propane tank will provide as much kWH output as a Powerwall. And you got it up and running less than a month from order time.
I am a big generator fan (as opposed to Powerwall$), but these small gensets are not made to run for extended run times without maintenance. That's fine for a few hours here and there, but if you need multiday continuous operation, these may not survive that sort of use.
These are certainly not meant heavy and frequent usage like what full time off-grid people need. But I have seen reports of them being used for multiple days occasionally without issues. However, they do need to have oil change about every 100 hours. Only using propane helps with the lifespan but they are probably still only good for < 2000 hours. OTOH, they are pretty inexpensive so having a spare is definitely doable.
Yeah, I think for the emergency backup scenario like mine, if I actually use it for 100-200 hours over the next 10 years, that would be something. I was looking for a third-party magnetic dipstick to replace the oddly-long factory one, the interweb consensus is nothing exists, but also that for emergency backup purposes, there was no real point, the generator would fail from some other old age reason, long before the metal particles in the oil had any effect on the longevity due to wear.
For my scenario, the real question is not not about extended use, but whether the generator will start up after sitting on a shelf for 6-24 months... but I've also noticed the same with the Powerwall folks here, regardless of whether the units are behaving well on-grid, it seems about a 2 in 3 chance it will actually switch over to power the house in an actual outage...
On a related generator note, there are apparently 52,000 PG&E customers who must have recently purchased similar generators, as I just saw on some PG&E resiliency newsletter, that is the number of BPTM devices they said they've installed since the program inception 18 months ago, first in Tier2/3 fire threat areas, and more recently EPSS areas. As these areas are usually near the urban/wilderness boundaries, I'm sure a few folks already had generators, but I'll be most of them were not 30A 240V ones compatible with the BPTM. Curiously, there are almost no discussions of actual experiences with the BPTM, being relatively new - aside from a couple of threads here on TMC, the most active one is some "Skyriders" forum - I think it's maybe motorcycle riders who like to live in the mountains....?
On a related-related note, I know the East Bay EPSS folks have complained about frequent "false positive" shutoffs this summer, when there have been no real wildfires of note.... you might actually want to wish for a few more! Reason is the PG&E newsletter was also parroting one of their newest programs, the one that is giving out free Powerwalls (installation included) to 1000 lucky customers, I recall one thread here about getting one of these letters (with unique qualifying code), but the person was baffled how they were chosen. So at least one of the criteria for qualifying for this program, according to the newsletter, is if you've experienced a "high number" of EPSS shut-off events.... At least in the South Bay, I've had no EPSS events that would bring me closer to this free Powerwall.
I would point out that many of these small generator engines are almost entirely aluminum, so a magnet doesn't do much for you. I.e. don't sweat not having one.
Ha, that's interesting! While I can't get close to the engine block on the A-iPower due to the closed plastic frame, I still have the WEN sitting in the garage, and I put a magnet on the engine block and it didn't stick - while I know there are some nonmagnetic forms of steel (mainly stainless), the outside of the block did look like rough cast aluminum. So I wonder why WEN sells a magnetic dipstick for it then ... placebo effect?
I didn't say it was useless. There are still a few steel parts; crankshafts, camshafts, bearings, retaining clips, valve springs, valves, sometimes even oil pumps... There aren't many engine blocks that are made of stainless, but there are some, just not in the "cheap class".
Personally, I prefer to put the magnets on the oil filter, or the drain plug. I had one car in which the magnetic drain plug in the (manual) transmission picked up a synchromesh tooth at around 100,000 miles. For a while thereafter, I worried about when the rest of the transmission would die, but 175,000 miles later, the transmission was still going strong.
YMMV...
Power went out this morning, reminiscent of the calm, blue-sky short outages we'd get frequently get year-round that begged ... why???? .. but haven't had as much of late. I figured power would come back on within a minute or two, so not worth trying to test out the BPTM. But after a few minutes had gone by without power, decided it'd be a good dry run while weather is nice and dry. Of course, by the time I schlepped the transfer cable and propane tank over to the generator, the power came back before I could connect and fire things up. Went off again a few minutes later, then back on in a minute.
So everything back into storage. I have topped off the 12v battery for the electric start recently before recent rains, but have not test-fired up the generator since the break-in run a few months ago. Hope for another random outage outside of wet weather to give the BPTM a go.
Speaking of random outages, since we're now EPSS-enabled in our area, I wonder if the brief outages today count as one ()or two EPSS events. Sounds like no, from others' experience here they have to spend hours or overnight to inspect the powerlines before restoring the grid during EPSS? I only wonder as I did put in an inquiry for the PG&E $5000 battery storage rebate, it said qualification was 8 EPSS events - but the website map only counted PSPS events, not EPSS, and though the map said I wasn't qualified for the rebate, it pretty much says that for everyone. We did have many outages in early 2022 from storms that I couldn't rule out could've been EPSS, so I inquired anyway. But I did finally get an e-mail response last week manually verifying I wasn't eligible....
So everything back into storage. I have topped off the 12v battery for the electric start recently before recent rains, but have not test-fired up the generator since the break-in run a few months ago. Hope for another random outage outside of wet weather to give the BPTM a go.
Speaking of random outages, since we're now EPSS-enabled in our area, I wonder if the brief outages today count as one ()or two EPSS events. Sounds like no, from others' experience here they have to spend hours or overnight to inspect the powerlines before restoring the grid during EPSS? I only wonder as I did put in an inquiry for the PG&E $5000 battery storage rebate, it said qualification was 8 EPSS events - but the website map only counted PSPS events, not EPSS, and though the map said I wasn't qualified for the rebate, it pretty much says that for everyone. We did have many outages in early 2022 from storms that I couldn't rule out could've been EPSS, so I inquired anyway. But I did finally get an e-mail response last week manually verifying I wasn't eligible....
RKCRLR
Active Member
My understanding is EPSS is only enabled when the risk of wildfire is high. At the very least they wouldn't necessarily need to inspect all the lines before getting the power back on.
I have no knowledge about EPSS myself, but are you sure about the second sentence?
This PG&E summary sheet seems to suggest that they check the lines;
Whenever our line trips out, it is a several hours to day long exercise to trace the wires, though it is getting much quicker when they use drones.
All the best,
BG
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RKCRLR
Active Member
I haven't researched it but I live in an area with frequent EPSS shutdowns. During periods of high wildfire risk if the power goes out in the afternoon many times it is not restored until the next day when they can inspect the lines by helicopters. I don't know if they use drones in my area but I definitely see the helicopters.
When my power goes out during low wildfire risk many times iit is restored in the middle of the night, and PG&E sends out status updates about estimated restoration times.
The video on testing is rather impressive, with plasma driven arc flash from tree limbs.
All the best,
BG
Enhanced Powerline Safety Settings
Learn about the advanced safety settings for PG&E electrical systems in high fire-risk and surrounding areas, know as EPSS.
www.pge.com
All the best,
BG
With every passing storm this winter, and there have been quite a number of them, I keep wondering, will this finally be the one the triggers an outage, and I can finally put the new propane generator and backup power to the test? And no, not a single storm-related outage this season at all this winter thus far...but rather than be ungrateful, I've had too much time on my hands as of late, so wanted to bump the thread for a few reasons:
1. The PG&E BPTM program was mostly closed to new applicants around early 2023, I think I read an article later in the year they installed 20,000 of these already. But I've been monitoring the page (just so I can advise a couple of colleagues), and they just re-opened the program for 2024. So just giving the heads-up to those who might qualify and be interested:
Backup Power Transfer Meter Program
There is a more detailed map now to see if you're in an eligible High Fire Threat District or EPSS area, and if you're not in but close to one, I'd still inquire, as it turned out I was eligible though it looked like I was two blocks out of EPSS.
2. If you qualify, you should also be eligible for at least $300 gas/propane generator rebate as well. I quickly got my PG&E check within two months of submitting.
3. I hinted at the outset, that while I intended to buy an eligible gas/propane generator, which I did document here before, I was somewhat interested to find a battery power station that could be used with the BPTM. More recently, I also noticed in their latest program materials, they explicitly call out that you can plug into the BPTM not just 240V gas generators, but also 240V battery generators (power stations) as well. Though they don't have a battery rebate program that aligns with the BPTM program yet...
My thinking was that maybe in a few years, there would not only be more 240V battery stations available, but also that they would drop in price from about $1.50+/watt to my magic threshold of $0.50/watt. Well, things have progressed far more quickly than I could have ever imagined - a whole bunch were announced during CES in January, or just within the pats few months.
So now in my garage, I have a brand-new Anker Solix F3800 with 3.8 kwh capacity, with a 240V L14-30 generator outlet that the BPTM cable can plug directly into . I've been running a few quick tests over the past few weeks to get a better feel for how it works for backup and other scenarios, and sharing/learning with other owners. So without any actual outages to put it to work, I've been working out the optimal ways to use the gas generator and the "battery generator" separately or together for backup power - will plan to share them here in the near future....
1. The PG&E BPTM program was mostly closed to new applicants around early 2023, I think I read an article later in the year they installed 20,000 of these already. But I've been monitoring the page (just so I can advise a couple of colleagues), and they just re-opened the program for 2024. So just giving the heads-up to those who might qualify and be interested:
Backup Power Transfer Meter Program
There is a more detailed map now to see if you're in an eligible High Fire Threat District or EPSS area, and if you're not in but close to one, I'd still inquire, as it turned out I was eligible though it looked like I was two blocks out of EPSS.
2. If you qualify, you should also be eligible for at least $300 gas/propane generator rebate as well. I quickly got my PG&E check within two months of submitting.
3. I hinted at the outset, that while I intended to buy an eligible gas/propane generator, which I did document here before, I was somewhat interested to find a battery power station that could be used with the BPTM. More recently, I also noticed in their latest program materials, they explicitly call out that you can plug into the BPTM not just 240V gas generators, but also 240V battery generators (power stations) as well. Though they don't have a battery rebate program that aligns with the BPTM program yet...
My thinking was that maybe in a few years, there would not only be more 240V battery stations available, but also that they would drop in price from about $1.50+/watt to my magic threshold of $0.50/watt. Well, things have progressed far more quickly than I could have ever imagined - a whole bunch were announced during CES in January, or just within the pats few months.
So now in my garage, I have a brand-new Anker Solix F3800 with 3.8 kwh capacity, with a 240V L14-30 generator outlet that the BPTM cable can plug directly into . I've been running a few quick tests over the past few weeks to get a better feel for how it works for backup and other scenarios, and sharing/learning with other owners. So without any actual outages to put it to work, I've been working out the optimal ways to use the gas generator and the "battery generator" separately or together for backup power - will plan to share them here in the near future....
@wwu123 Please keep us posted!
I would certainly be interested in a battery to buffer a generator output to enable long duration low power backup. I do not like to run a generator for a 0.3-0.5kW load; much better to "supercharge" a battery with the generator at close to peak load, and then shut the generator down to run the house for awhile. Quieter, and more efficient, too.
Lucky you not to have outages.
We have been having outages, though not seemingly coupled to high winds or storms. Given the back to back storms forecast for this week, we would be on generator power pretty quickly if an outage developed.
All the best,
BG
I would certainly be interested in a battery to buffer a generator output to enable long duration low power backup. I do not like to run a generator for a 0.3-0.5kW load; much better to "supercharge" a battery with the generator at close to peak load, and then shut the generator down to run the house for awhile. Quieter, and more efficient, too.
Lucky you not to have outages.
We have been having outages, though not seemingly coupled to high winds or storms. Given the back to back storms forecast for this week, we would be on generator power pretty quickly if an outage developed.All the best,
BG
Look forward to further updates on the unit. It would be impressive if it actually has working AC coupling (i.e. frequency shifting control of grid-tied inverters) off-grid as advertised. A potential red flag so far is that there seems to very little documentation available with no mention of AC coupling. A limitation seen in reviews is that when AC charging is on the 240V generator output is shutoff, which prevents convenient recharging from a generator during extended outages.
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