Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives

[Skryll]

I don't know if you've had anyone out to your house yet or not but what I was told by the people that I had come out was that basically 1 Powerwall can be a whole house back up as long as you don't have any breakers that are greater than 30A. If you do then you need an isolated (critical) panel installed in which they can basically move everything that is under 30A over to it. In my case everything would be moved except for 1 electric oven, 240v EVSE, and my A/C. If you have 2 Powerwalls though everything up to 60A (??) can be backed up. The issue is that the Powerwall can't continuously output more than 5kWh so anything over 30A could consume more. My EV can only pull 3.3kWh right now but as it's on a 50A breaker it couldn't be backed up if I were to go with 1 Powerwall.

I got a quote for two powerwalls to back the 200A main. For some reason they want to 'upgrade' our 200A main panel for an additional $6k, which would push the amortization past the warranty.

We currently have two sub panels attached to that 200A main, and since 2015 are backfeeding the 10kW solar through the same sub panel we have the EV chargers and AC on, while the rest of the home is on the other.

They basically said they need to fit the powerwall inbetween the main and the two sub panels but for some reason they think that costs $6k, because of all the equipment needed, which I find hard to believe. I am pushing back at them to see if they can figure something better out. An alternative would be to just have a partial backup for the solar/EV charger/AC sub panel, but I am not really interested in that solution.

The single powerwall solution would have an install cost of $1950, the predicted range is $800 to $2000, so maybe they think because I own a tesla I need to pay top of the range?

I am definitely not going to pay $20k to get two powerwalls. And who knows if the SGIP will come to help offset that.

Powerwall 2 installation: Costs and CA SGIP rebate | Tesla mentions somebody that got a free rewiring to the main. So why does it cost $6k in my case.

 

[Kren]

I got a quote for two powerwalls to back the 200A main. For some reason they want to 'upgrade' our 200A main panel for an additional $6k, which would push the amortization past the warranty.

We currently have two sub panels attached to that 200A main, and since 2015 are backfeeding the 10kW solar through the same sub panel we have the EV chargers and AC on, while the rest of the home is on the other.

They basically said they need to fit the powerwall inbetween the main and the two sub panels but for some reason they think that costs $6k, because of all the equipment needed, which I find hard to believe. I am pushing back at them to see if they can figure something better out. An alternative would be to just have a partial backup for the solar/EV charger/AC sub panel, but I am not really interested in that solution.

The single powerwall solution would have an install cost of $1950, the predicted range is $800 to $2000, so maybe they think because I own a tesla I need to pay top of the range?

I am definitely not going to pay $20k to get two powerwalls. And who knows if the SGIP will come to help offset that.

Powerwall 2 installation: Costs and CA SGIP rebate | Tesla mentions somebody that got a free rewiring to the main. So why does it cost $6k in my case.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but can a normal electrician do this work or does the electrician need to have some type of solar system expertise? I was thinking for myself to take my panel upgrade out of the tesla contract and find an electrician to do it.

 

[shokunin]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but can a normal electrician do this work or does the electrician need to have some type of solar system expertise? I was thinking for myself to take my panel upgrade out of the tesla contract and find an electrician to do it.

While a licensed electrician should be able to do, it'd be highly inconvenient. Any main panel work means you'll be out of power and having 2 separate contractors doing the work would mean scheduling them at different times.

You'd have to know exactly the type of panel and how the panels are to be wired for the powerwall installation. Just upgrading the panel from one electrician's point of view may not be how Tesla wants the panel wired and may result in finger pointing and rework.

This should be a turnkey installation for best results and reliability.

 

[Kren]

While a licensed electrician should be able to do, it'd be highly inconvenient. Any main panel work means you'll be out of power and having 2 separate contractors doing the work would mean scheduling them at different times.

You'd have to know exactly the type of panel and how the panels are to be wired for the powerwall installation. Just upgrading the panel from one electrician's point of view may not be how Tesla wants the panel wired and may result in finger pointing and rework.

This should be a turnkey installation for best results and reliability.

Okay great thank you for the information.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

Its a good question about demand response - I don't know how that works.

If you are familiar with SmartAC program, that's a type of demand response. SGIP eligibility is by two paths: (1) 52 equivalent discharges per year (self consumption is considered discharge), and (2) participation in a demand response program. The SGIP application somewhat quizzes system owners about cost effectiveness/pay-back and suggests money earned from demand response programs to offset installation costs. That's why maybe home batteries can pay for themselves. I just received a demand response notification from a provider. If I had 2 powerwalls that can discharge to grid for an hour at 10kW/h, I could earn $30 cash for today's event.

 

[abasile]

I did not reward any of those third party installers. I even tried to get a straight answer from one about what costs so much on the install for the 2nd powerwall and all he did was talk in circles and claimed Tesla was “hiding” the TRUE cost of a powerwall install to undercut everyone else.

I agree that $12K is too high. My quote from a third party installer, for a single Powerwall, was $10,575 with a bit of negotiation and by deleting the conditional loads subpanel. This is still high, but I'm not of the opinion that it constitutes any sort of price gouging or a point on which a moral stand needs to be taken.

A typical quote for a main panel upgrade is about $2000, of which no more than a few hundred dollars would be attributable to hardware costs. Installing a Powerwall 2 seems like significantly more work than a main panel upgrade. Charging over $4-5K in labor and "soft costs" seems within range even if somewhat high, as this seems to be about what contractors have been charging to install other battery systems such as Sonnen.

For the work involved, Tesla's installation quotes do seem pretty low. My sense is that Tesla isn't making any money on installations and that they're counting on profit from selling the Powerwalls themselves. Of course, this is great for homeowners!

Rather than attempting to crack down on high-priced installations, the SGIP administrators should simply lift the 20% developer cap for residential systems. This would enable more homeowners to go with the lowest cost installer.

 

[Az_Rael]

nstalling a Powerwall 2 seems like significantly more work than a main panel upgrade.

I didn't get that impression, which is why I questioned it. The installer quoting the price could not give me an itemized quote with labor estimates or explain why the costs were so high except to say "Tesla is hiding something".

So I know a powerwall involves a sub panel, and a gateway plus permitting and whatever fees involved with turning the system on. I am not sure what else there is that might be driving up the costs. I don't think its going to take them a week of labor to install this, either, so I have no idea why it was going to cost $8000 to install 2 powerwalls.

Ironically, if they had quoted me $12k for 1 then just a few hundred in install costs more for the 2nd (like Tesla does), I probably would have been in. But when I heard $20K for 2, I knew something was fishy.


Anyone know how complicated a PW install actually is?

 

[zanary]

I didn't get that impression, which is why I questioned it. The installer quoting the price could not give me an itemized quote with labor estimates or explain why the costs were so high except to say "Tesla is hiding something".

So I know a powerwall involves a sub panel, and a gateway plus permitting and whatever fees involved with turning the system on. I am not sure what else there is that might be driving up the costs. I don't think its going to take them a week of labor to install this, either, so I have no idea why it was going to cost $8000 to install 2 powerwalls.

Ironically, if they had quoted me $12k for 1 then just a few hundred in install costs more for the 2nd (like Tesla does), I probably would have been in. But when I heard $20K for 2, I knew something was fishy.


Anyone know how complicated a PW install actually is?

I don't know if this helps, but I did mine recently (about 3 weeks ago). I don't have solar, so I went with Whole Home Backup. No panel upgrade was required. I put everything (House, 5 tons AC), on the Whole Home Backup, but left my 60 amp Tesla Wall Connector connected to the grid.

Tesla came out to do their assessment, and determined that all I need is two Powerwall unit.

$13832 was the grand total (including permits and installation).

The installation did take from 9am to around 4pm. My meter and main panels are next to each other, and the gateway, new sub panel and the batteries are around 20 feet away.

I do my own Time of Use Load Shifting (flipping the breaker off and back on each day). To date (which is nearly 1 month now), I have 390 total backup hours. The longest backup I show in the app has been 40 hours 46 minutes, and I recall I still had around 27% or more of the battery (I was lazy and didn't flip the breaker, so I went nearly 2 days on the quantity 2 on my Powerwall

 

[Kren]

I don't know if this helps, but I did mine recently (about 3 weeks ago). I don't have solar, so I went with Whole Home Backup. No panel upgrade was required. I put everything (House, 5 tons AC), on the Whole Home Backup, but left my 60 amp Tesla Wall Connector connected to the grid.

Tesla came out to do their assessment, and determined that all I need is two Powerwall unit.

$13832 was the grand total (including permits and installation).

The installation did take from 9am to around 4pm. My meter and main panels are next to each other, and the gateway, new sub panel and the batteries are around 20 feet away.

I do my own Time of Use Load Shifting (flipping the breaker off and back on each day). To date (which is nearly 1 month now), I have 390 total backup hours. The longest backup I show in the app has been 40 hours 46 minutes, and I recall I still had around 27% or more of the battery (I was lazy and didn't flip the breaker, so I went nearly 2 days on the quantity 2 on my Powerwall

Thanks for showing your estimate. I can confirm that mine is almost exactly the same except $2400 additional for main panel upgrade. Did you get an SGIP rebate? Can you switch your Tesla Wall Connector so that it can get power from the battery during an extended power outage?

 

[zanary]

Thanks for showing your estimate. I can confirm that mine is almost exactly the same except $2400 additional for main panel upgrade. Did you get an SGIP rebate? Can you switch your Tesla Wall Connector so that it can get power from the battery during an extended power outage?

I did apply for my SGIP rebate back on June 5th and signed over the PG&E Interconnect Licenses on the day of the install. Just today PG&E confirmed receiving my Interconnect License (I received an email from them directly). I have not yet received my $9280 from SGIP. I'm hoping before the end of the year now that they have accepted delivery of my PG&E Interconnect License.

As for switching my Tesla, I did not want to do that. I have a Model S P100D, and a Model X 90D, so there's no way I am planning on charging either with just two Powerwall. I rather just leave my Tesla vehicles on their own, and let my Powerwall run my house (gotta keep my Grey Goose chilled in the freezer during a multiple day outage you know ).

I'm on EV-A plan from PG&E, so I figured I charge one Tesla and Powerwall between 11pm and 7am at the same $0.125/kw rate. I charge the cars on alternate days right now.

I may get a second Wall Charger, but I was told that my main panel is only rated math 125amps, and I would need to move it to a 200amp panel to match my 200amp service from PG&E. I figured I'll do that at some point in the future, but right now I'm happy with my current setup.

Just need to wait for PowerwallOS 2.0 which hopefully will support Time of Use Load Shifting. I'm still running PowerwallOS 1.6.0, even though a few people have been upgraded to 1.7.0. I hear that 1.9.0 is on the cusp of being released but like the vehicles, not all customers get the latest version of the PowerwallOS

PowerwallOS 2.0 with Time of Use Load Shifting will also require an Tesla iOS app update I hear

 

[shokunin]

I don't know if this helps, but I did mine recently (about 3 weeks ago). I don't have solar, so I went with Whole Home Backup. No panel upgrade was required. I put everything (House, 5 tons AC), on the Whole Home Backup, but left my 60 amp Tesla Wall Connector connected to the grid.

Tesla came out to do their assessment, and determined that all I need is two Powerwall unit.

$13832 was the grand total (including permits and installation).

Thanks for sharing the quote!

$900 seems more inline with "actual costs" and most businesses would probably think that's a bit cheap. Even if the install costs were $2000 or $2500, that's still way less than the $7000+ other energy contractors seem to be quoting for 2 powerwalls.

I just get the sleazy feeling of being taken advantage of just because of SGIP, and if the SGIP rebate wasn't there then all of a sudden the install costs would drop dramatically.

 

[zanary]

Thanks for sharing the quote!

$900 seems more inline with "actual costs" and most businesses would probably think that's a bit cheap. Even if the install costs were $2000 or $2500, that's still way less than the $7000+ other energy contractors seem to be quoting for 2 powerwalls.

I just get the sleazy feeling of being taken advantage of just because of SGIP, and if the SGIP rebate wasn't there then all of a sudden the install costs would drop dramatically.

What I find interesting is this $900 was installation which was two Tesla Electricians onsite from 9am to 4pm, and all the parts and pieces to do the install, plus they come back onsite at a future date and hang out until the inspector shows up. So maybe 15 hours in total between the two guys and two days all for $900.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

What I find interesting is this $900 was installation which was two Tesla Electricians onsite from 9am to 4pm, and all the parts and pieces to do the install, plus they come back onsite at a future date and hang out until the inspector shows up. So maybe 15 hours in total between the two guys and two days all for $900.

I have the exact same installation cost of $900 as stated in my contract. I have questioned whether or not my installation is executable for that line item, so your installation confirms that it is real. Installation costs appear to have no profit or markup. Much of the profit seems to be built into the Powerwalls AND the $700 Energy Gateway.

If you receive your $9280 relatively quickly, it will demonstrate that those who completed ICF jump ahead of the queue of 1000 RRF. That would convince me to install before funds are reserved/confirmed.

Regarding your install: You said you have 200A service to a 125A main panel. Typically PG&E doesn't mismatch service panel rating to the service. I have a 125A panel in the home labeled "main" but it is really a sub-panel. I say this because your house seems to be exactly like mine. I am assuming you have a 200A service panel, is this correct?

In hopes of trying to answer some posts about the need for a panel upgrade. I ask the above because I have been watchful over when a service panel upgrade is required or not. I am guessing that you have plenty of bus bar capacity remaining to simply add 2 Powerwalls without incurring added costs of a "panel upgrade." I have condensed my thoughts to three bullet points about this (excuse the brevity):

1. 120% bus bar rule. With and without de-rating using main breakers
2. NEC load calc protecting service cable vs. Load Tests protecting against nuisance tripping
3. Main Lug Only (MLO) service panel exception

 

[sreehyd]

Yesterday , I received a bunch of files power specs, install diagram and few other complaince details from PGE . Not sure what it means ?

 

[zanary]

I have the exact same installation cost of $900 as stated in my contract. I have questioned whether or not my installation is executable for that line item, so your installation confirms that it is real. Installation costs appear to have no profit or markup. Much of the profit seems to be built into the Powerwalls AND the $700 Energy Gateway.

If you receive your $9280 relatively quickly, it will demonstrate that those who completed ICF jump ahead of the queue of 1000 RRF. That would convince me to install before funds are reserved/confirmed.

Regarding your install: You said you have 200A service to a 125A main panel. Typically PG&E doesn't mismatch service panel rating to the service. I have a 125A panel in the home labeled "main" but it is really a sub-panel. I say this because your house seems to be exactly like mine. I am assuming you have a 200A service panel, is this correct?

In hopes of trying to answer some posts about the need for a panel upgrade. I ask the above because I have been watchful over when a service panel upgrade is required or not. I am guessing that you have plenty of bus bar capacity remaining to simply add 2 Powerwalls without incurring added costs of a "panel upgrade." I have condensed my thoughts to three bullet points about this (excuse the brevity):

1. 120% bus bar rule. With and without de-rating using main breakers
2. NEC load calc protecting service cable vs. Load Tests protecting against nuisance tripping
3. Main Lug Only (MLO) service panel exception

I'll let you know once I get my check for SGIP. I'm just hanging on, as I know it all takes time, but I feel like I'm very close to getting it.

As for my panel, the installers looked at my meter and it has a 200CL which according to them is a 200 amp service, but my main panel which is connected to the meter (literally about 3 inches away), indicates 125amp on the inside cover on a sticker or sorts. That panel was connected to a sub that has all the breakers to my house, so this is how it was setup.

Meter -> Main Panel (which also has my 60amp Tesla Wall Connector) -> Sub Panel (which all has all my breakers for the house).

Now it's connected like this.

Meter -> Main Panel (still has my 60 amp Tesla Wall Connector) -> Gateway -> new Sub Panel -> my original sub panel for the entire house.

Hope that makes sense. As for bus capacity, on my main I do, but that's where I'll need to upgrade it to a 200amp panel to accommodate a 2nd 60amp Wall Charger. On the new sub panel that has each Powerwall connected to it's own 30amp breaker, I would have to call Tesla out again to look at everything if I were to ever add a 3rd one. That's what the Tesla guys had said.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

I'll let you know once I get my check for SGIP. I'm just hanging on, as I know it all takes time, but I feel like I'm very close to getting it.

As for my panel, the installers looked at my meter and it has a 200CL which according to them is a 200 amp service, but my main panel which is connected to the meter (literally about 3 inches away), indicates 125amp on the inside cover on a sticker or sorts. That panel was connected to a sub that has all the breakers to my house, so this is how it was setup.

Meter -> Main Panel (which also has my 60amp Tesla Wall Connector) -> Sub Panel (which all has all my breakers for the house).

Now it's connected like this.

Meter -> Main Panel (still has my 60 amp Tesla Wall Connector) -> Gateway -> new Sub Panel -> my original sub panel for the entire house.

Hope that makes sense. As for bus capacity, on my main I do, but that's where I'll need to upgrade it to a 200amp panel to accommodate a 2nd 60amp Wall Charger. On the new sub panel that has each Powerwall connected to it's own 30amp breaker, I would have to call Tesla out again to look at everything if I were to ever add a 3rd one. That's what the Tesla guys had said.

Great info you provided! I have a few lingering thoughts:

1. Sounds like you have separate meter given that it's 3" away from your main panel with a wood stud between. (I have a combination meter (load center) panel in my house.) Definitely your house setup is poster child since that's what the Tesla brochures show--separate meter. In the Tesla brochures, the gateway is between the meter and the main panel. I see how the new sub panel makes good sense.

2. Alternatively, I do wonder if they could still wire it where it's Meter- > Gateway -> Main Panel -> new Sub Panel AND original sub panel for the entire house. Is it a legit practice to pass the wire from the meter thru the main (without landing) direct to gateway and return back to main power to power the whole house (say if you wanted to backup your Tesla Wall Connector)?

3. Reason I ask the above is that I have a combination meter-load center and wondering about the "pass thru" aspect of electrical work. I imagine Meter (->) Main Panel -> Gateway -> original sub panel for the majority of the house. I can't break the tie (->) due to UL listing. I would imagine they would need to route all my sub panels thru the Main Panel as a pass-thru to get to the new Sub Panel on the other side of the gateway. I hope this makes sense. Due to the 6 throw rule (house breaker, AC breaker, backyard breakers), solar installers installed a new sub panel for solar. Car charger uses this solar sub panel. I am puzzled what they plan to do, and would very much like to direct the work to make sure nothing is overlooked.

4. I would be curious if your 125amp main panel has a main breaker. From the meter what is the first breaker it sees? Curious if your home has a main lug only (no main breaker) like mine.

 

[DeJa]

Just talked to my local SGIP administrator and he acknowledged that other installers are essentially gouging consumers when compared to Tesla's costs. When asked if I could be a self installer he said they are actively looking in to those and for at least the Powerwalls as it's known that Tesla won't sell to a homeowner directly for a self install they would not be approved.

He understands what everyone is trying to do, i.e. get a Powerwall installed for a reasonable price and get the SGIP rebate but if Tesla isn't going to apply for the rebate for you it's highly likely you won't get it if you have them install your system which they would know not just because Tesla won't sell to you directly to install but also because of the documentation you have to provide they can see that Tesla installed it.

In the end I think I'm just going to pass on this. It's sad really but the 20% developer cap is really screwing everyone. Doesn't essentially help that the only somewhat more reasonable installer I found has a contract that puts all the risk on you and provides no guarantee that they will even install a Powerwall within a reasonable or heck even an unreasonable time frame without you losing your deposit if say they still haven't installed it in 3 years.

 

[Az_Rael]

Just talked to my local SGIP administrator and he acknowledged that other installers are essentially gouging consumers when compared to Tesla's costs. When asked if I could be a self installer he said they are actively looking in to those and for at least the Powerwalls as it's known that Tesla won't sell to a homeowner directly for a self install they would not be approved.

He understands what everyone is trying to do, i.e. get a Powerwall installed for a reasonable price and get the SGIP rebate but if Tesla isn't going to apply for the rebate for you it's highly likely you won't get it if you have them install your system which they would know not just because Tesla won't sell to you directly to install but also because of the documentation you have to provide they can see that Tesla installed it.

In the end I think I'm just going to pass on this. It's sad really but the 20% developer cap is really screwing everyone. Doesn't essentially help that the only somewhat more reasonable installer I found has a contract that puts all the risk on you and provides no guarantee that they will even install a Powerwall within a reasonable or heck even an unreasonable time frame without you losing your deposit if say they still haven't installed it in 3 years.

Did the SGIP rep give any hints that they are re-thinking the 20% cap policy?

 

[ElectricRed]

Did the SGIP rep give any hints that they are re-thinking the 20% cap policy?

I emailed the SGIP rep and he said there are no plans to raise the developer cap at this point. However, he said that PG&E is more than halfway through their Step 2 budget in only 4 months, so he thinks Step 3 for PG&E will open next Spring.

 

[DeJa]

Did the SGIP rep give any hints that they are re-thinking the 20% cap policy?

I guess they are constantly looking at the program to help ensure the funds are being used as effectively as possible but he gave no indication they were looking specifically to raise the 20% cap or abolish it.