SAE Levels and Tesla Autonomy definitions

[vanca]

(moderator note: This thread is spun out as a sort of purgatory for these unresolvable differences. What happens when the irresistible force meets an immovable object…)

I think you will find that post-3/19 people who bought FSD were promised FSD, whatever that became. While no specific capability may have been promised, "FSD" was. If Tesla turns around and indicates that they can't get to L4+, the pre-3/19 people may be owed damages and the post-3/19 people not. But if FSD is still being developed towards the promises to the pre-3/19 folks, the post-3/19 folks are still part of the same program. They didn't buy "FSD lite".

 

[Knightshade]

I think you will find that post-3/19 people who bought FSD were promised FSD, whatever that became. While no specific capability may have been promised, "FSD" was.

I do not think I will find that, because it's factually untrue.

FSD as sold post 3/19 did have specific capabilities promised.

With city streets now in wide release in NA, all those capabilities promised have been delivered.

The product sold under the name FSD post 3/19 was very, very, specifically DIFFERENT from the one sold prior to it, and that's crystal clear in the listed features of each when sold.

For example 4 of the 6 features in the post 3/19 FSD product were actually NOT part of the pre 3/19 FSD at all, they were part of the lower-cost EAP product... then FSD was an additional add-on on top of EAP.

Detailed screen shots of all this provided for you below since you seem to have been unaware of them.


FSD entire product description below the option select checkbox prior to March 2019, which describes a system that is at least L4 with a wide ODD (arguably L5)

FSD production description for POST March 2019 buyers, which is clearly a different, much narrower and more specific promises, product- that never promises any more than L2-I show here both the original March 2019 description (labeled OLD on the right) and the updated one on the left labeled NEW once traffic light stuff was released and the ONLY feature on the list not already available when you bought FSD by the NEW update was the city streets part- now in wide(ish) release in NA.

So in short- the ONLY basis for legal action, from the product description, that any post 3/19 buyer would have if "all" they ever get is L2 on city streets (plus the other listed features- Tesla DOES need to fix those for non-USS cars...) is based on the "later this year" language which turned out to be wrong for the first 2 years they claimed it (IIRC they removed that language sometime in either late 2020 or early 2021? Changed to just coming later so buyers after that wouldn't be party to such a suit)

That would be similar to the EAP lawsuit where Tesla was late delivering promised features- and buyers got a tiny (roughly 10% of price paid It think?) refund for it.

 

[vanca]

I do not think I will find that, because it's factually untrue.

FSD as sold post 3/19 did have specific capabilities promised.

[...]

That would be similar to the EAP lawsuit where Tesla was late delivering promised features- and buyers got a tiny (roughly 10% of price paid It think?) refund for it.

If Tesla can't actually create a real (L4) "FSD", post-3/19 buyers get only what was listed (or developed for them since). But FSD was never sold as being *limited* to only those few features available at the time. It was sold as including whatever features Teslas added to that product named "FSD" in the future. It was quite clear that Tesla's goal was to have L4 capability in FSD. No guarantees, but the goal. If Tesla can create a real "FSD", the later purchasers are also entitled to it. If Tesla wanted to segregate follow on capabilities, and say, sell L4 capabilitiy to folks who already purchased "FSD", they would have had to create a different product. And the worst PR disaster in history.

 

[Knightshade]

If Tesla can't actually create a real (L4) "FSD", post-3/19 buyers get only what was listed (or developed for them since). But FSD was never sold as being *limited* to only those few features available at the time. It was sold as including whatever features Teslas added to that product named "FSD" in the future.

It was literally sold (post 3/19) with a very specific list of very specific features.

The only ones of which was promised for the future were traffic lights (already long since delivered now) and then city streets.

Which is now delivered via FSDb that is (in theory) widely available for NA

I posted screen shots of this, from Tesla, on the specific screen describing what you are buying, what you are promised, during the sales process when you check the box to buy it.

Nothing remotely like L4 (or even L3) was ever promised during this process at all to those buyers....though it WAS promised during the purchase process to pre 3/19 buyers (again as made clear in the screen shots I posted).

I entirely agree there are many reasons Tesla would be better off providing L4 (should they be able to develop it) to ALL buyers--and even gave reasons why that is so- but they only "owe" it to the pre 3/19 ones.

That last part is relevant both legally, and for accounting purposes on revenue recognition.

Actually if they can get to L3 that would be "real" Full Self Driving and meet all sales contractual and printed agreements. Even if you read the document Nightshade posted about using as a rideshare it doesn't specifically say "without a driver".

​

What was promised to the pre 3/19 people would exclude L3, since L3 requires the person in the drivers seat to always be prepared to recognize a signal from the car and always be prepared to take over the driving task if they receive one- which runs contrary to the promise to do complete drives without requiring any action from the person in the drivers seat.

L4 is the first SAE level where there is never a requirement for a human to take any action.

 

[powertoold]

FSD entire product description below the option select checkbox prior to March 2019, which describes a system that is at least L4 with a wide ODD (arguably L5)

No it doesn't. Can't believe we discuss this all the time.

If your kid is a new driver, you get in the car and supervise him, you're not taking any action as it relates to the driving.

The description doesn't refer to L4 or L5 as those definitions are very specific and outlined throughout 10s of pages in the SAE document.

 

[Knightshade]

No it doesn't. Can't believe we discuss this all the time.

Same- since you keep being corrected on it and keep getting it wrong.

It absolutely DOES.

If your kid is a new driver, you get in the car and supervise him, you're not taking any action as it relates to the driving.

Supervising is an action. By the definition of the word action. And by the definition of the word supervising.

So is taking over- which L3 requires you being available to do if asked. it requires you to be paying enough attention (an ACTION) to be able to take over in a reasonably short period of time if asked.


This is exceedingly clear by simple use of the actual meaning of words in the english language

That you remain confused about it despite repeated correction is very odd.

 

[powertoold]

This is exceedingly clear by simple use of the actual meaning of words in the english language

Then why is there a 30-page SAE definition in the first place if it's so simple?

You're very stubborn in this. You have one interpretation of the description and think it's the only interpretation.

 

[Knightshade]

Then why is there a 30-page SAE definition in the first place if it's so simple?

Perhaps you should read it if you're unclear on this....it perpetually sounds from your arguments that you have not.

You're very stubborn in this. You have one interpretation of the description and think it's the only interpretation.

Not stubborn- factually correct.

And I've presented specific evidence as to why. Including the actual (much much shorter) language Tesla uses, and the actual English definitions of the words they use there and how they related to the SAE level requirements.


Whereas your rebuttal consistently appears to be "nu uh!"

Which is....not convincing.


Supervising is an action.

Being prepared to take over if requested is an action.

Tesla states their pre 3/19 system will require NO action from the person in the drivers seat.

The lowest SAE driving level where NO action is ever required of a person in the drivers seat is L4.

Therefore Tesla is describing at least an L4 system.


That's it. That's the very simple, very clear, argument proving my point.

If you have a cogent rebuttal I'd love to hear it, but so far have not seen such.

 

[powertoold]

Whereas your rebuttal consistently appears to be "nu uh!"

Well, your rebuttal is that it's simple English.

The description doesn't reference or use any terms relating to the SAE definition. Yet we are supposed to infer that the description is directly related to the SAE definition? That makes no sense to me.

Full self driving != Full autonomy

Full self driving is a made up marketing term from Tesla.

 

[Knightshade]

Well, your rebuttal is that it's simple English.

The description doesn't reference or use any terms relating to the SAE definition.

Nor does it need to.

It states no action is required by the person in the drivers seat.

You can then, trivially, go to the SAE document and see what the lowest level they define where no action from a driver is required- and it's L4.

Every SAE Level below 4 requires some action from a human in the drivers seat

That's it. That's the obvious and clear way to read all this.

Yet we are supposed to infer that the description is directly related to the SAE definition? That makes no sense to me.

Keep reading the above simple explanation until it does I guess? It's pretty easy.

 

[Knightshade]

Actually- here- if asking you to read the 30 page SAE doc is too much of a problem, I've taken the SAE summary chart and circled in red where it's obvious and clear Tesla is describing a system above level 3

In red you see that at L3 (and L0 through L2) the human in the drivers seat has to do something

Which is contrary to the product description of pre 3/19 FSD, which states that human doesn't have to take any action at all.

The lowest level on the chart where that is true is L4.

Hope this finally clears things up for you.

 

[powertoold]

L4 is the first SAE level where there is never a requirement for a human to take any action.

Except Tesla's description never uses any word that connotes "never," "ever," or "always." You're the only one applying this absolute to Tesla's description.

Tesla's description simply says "be able to," capable, or can. Where do you see any word here that connotes an "always" capability or requirement?:

The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat.

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla's description simply says "be able to," capable, or can.

And an L3 system can not do that. Ever.

By definition.

Where, specifically, do you get lost in that incredibly simple sentence?

The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat.

Which by definition is an L4 or better system.

Like I said in the first place.

An L3 system can not ever do that

L3 always requires action by the person in the drivers seat.

Even if that action is not "driving"

I even posted a picture from SAE, with the action required every single time by an L3 system circled in red.

 

[powertoold]

And an L3 system can not do that. Ever.

By definition.

What I find so confusing in all of this is that you seem to look at the fsd description ONLY through the lense of the SAE definition.

You first put on your SAE glasses and then you read the description.

And yet you can't point to any direct reference to the SAE definition in the description.

When we say level 4, we are specifically talking about the SAE definition, but if some lay person just says "the car is driving itself, I'm not doing anything," we can't assume he's referring to level 4 (or any level for that matter).

 

[Knightshade]

What I find so confusing in all of this is that you seem to look at the fsd description ONLY through the lense of the SAE definition.

Because that was the literal topic under discussion.

I mentioned the FSD description promised a system that was at least L4.

Then you and the other guy spent 3 pages wrongly trying to deny it.

Now you're pretending to be confused why we're talking about SAE levels or something?

You first put on your SAE glasses and then you read the description.

And yet you can't point to any direct reference to the SAE definition in the description.

This objection makes no actual sense.

SAE levels describe certain design intent and functional/capability requirements.

Thus you can- trivially- describe your systems design intent and functionality without ever mentioning the SAE, and still have it be obvious what SAE level said system would fall under (or at least the minimum SAE level it would fall under).

L4 in this case.... because all levels below it require action from the person in the drivers seat every time you engage them

And Tesla told us clearly their system would not require that.



I'm again baffled at how you keep getting this wrong.

When we say level 4, we are specifically talking about the SAE definition

Yes. We have been this whole time. Did you not notice that?

, but if some lay person just says "the car is driving itself, I'm not doing anything," we can't assume he's referring to level 4 (or any level for that matter).

Ok. But this isn't some lay person (or ANYBODY) saying that.

This is Tesla saying the system will be able to drive itself without any action from the person in the drivers seat.

Which, again, means a system that is a minimum of L4 under SAE. It COULD also be 5, but not enough info is provided to judge that.

It CAN NOT be less than 4 though- because-- ya know, I'm not gonna repeat it a 79th time (including a 2nd in this very post-- if you're still gonna pretend you don't know why go back and re-read the last 3 pages where it's explained- with pictures even)

 

[powertoold]

I mentioned the FSD description promised a system that was at least L4.

Yes, and your premise is wrong. That's what I've been trying to say.

You started with a false premise: that the description directly references the SAE levels.

Then you ran with that false premise.

You keep posting and referencing that SUMMARY chart of the SAE levels, but the levels are much more complicated than that summary chart. If it were that simple, they wouldn't need the 30-page definition document.

Tesla's description is like 2 paragraphs with no reference to the SAE defintion, and then you say it's plain english that it's level 4, and when I ask you if it's plain english, then why does the SAE require 30 pages to define and clarify what the levels mean? You go back to "it's plain english though!" This is all because you started with a false premise.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, and your premise is wrong. That's what I've been trying to say.

Not very well. Or correctly for that matter.

You started with a false premise: that the description directly references the SAE levels.

This is like the 10th thing you've just made up that I never said than attributed to me.

It's increasingly hard to believe you're even trying to argue honestly.

You keep posting and referencing that SUMMARY chart of the SAE levels, but the levels are much more complicated than that summary chart.

Yes, but when I gave you the longer explanation you clearly didn't understand that, so I used a much simpler picture that also showed you were wrong.

And then you failed to understand that too.

If it were that simple, they wouldn't need the 30-page definition document.

E=MC^2 is pretty short.

There's a really long paper that explains it in more detail, but to people who already grasp the overall concept they don't need to go read it again each time.

Tesla's description is like 2 paragraphs with no reference to the SAE defintion, and then you say it's plain english that it's level 4

This is the first, and it seems only, correct thing you have said all thread.

And only because it's quoting what I already told you.

, and when I ask you if it's plain english, then why does the SAE require 30 pages to define and clarify what the levels mean? You go back to "it's plain english though!" This is all because you started with a false premise.

What kind of dressing would you like with that nonsense word salad?

 

[powertoold]

This is like the 10th thing you've just made up that I never said than attributed to me.

It's increasingly hard to believe you're even trying to argue honestly.

That's what I'm claiming you're doing with the FSD description.

I don't know why I keep having to mention this, but Tesla never mentions or references the levels in the description. The description is EXTREMELY brief, as it relates to AUTONOMY. Most of the description relates to safety (not in the scope of the levels) and extraneous features (get in and knows where to go).

The only real portion that relates to AUTONOMY is basically ONE sentence about "action." You seem to be caught up in ONE WORD and say it must mean level 4 because NO ACTION = NO SUPERVISION.

You've held onto this belief for so long that you don't even know how to break out of it.

Let me show you something, the SAE levels is a COMPLEX definition. That's why I keep pointing out that it's a 30-page document! You have to read it MULTIPLE times to really understand it! And yet you keep saying, "well it's just simple english!" You cannot conclude ONE sentence is referring to any particular level unless you ask questions or get more information:

SAE J3016 User Guide

"The scope of this article is to help readers understand what is in J3016, and what is not. In particular, it serves to debunk common myths and misconceptions about the contents of J3016. Even with an attempt to keep things brief, this article is complicated, simply because J3016 is a complicated standard."

"SAE J3016 is so complex it is difficult to get everything right, even for me. If you see something that is incorrect please let me know, but please do tell me exactly where in the standard I'm conflicting. Conflicting with some other article would be no surprise, because so many of them buy in to one of the myths (or one I haven't run into yet)."

 

[Knightshade]

That's what I'm claiming you're doing with the FSD description.

Right- you are, again, claiming something nobody ever actually said.

Not sure why you keep doing that other than you know you have no actual argument to make so you have to invent strawmen instead?

I don't know why I keep having to mention this, but Tesla never mentions or references the levels in the description

Nobody knows why you keep mentioning it since it's not relevant at all.

I can describe the crime of murder in the second degree without using the word murder for example, but you can then look up the requirements for murder in each degree and determine the actual crime I was describing. Same with many many other things where you can describe a level or capability of a thing without using a specific word that might define that thing.

This is not a hard concept but you somehow get that completely wrong too.



Tesla is a describing the planned capabilities of their system.

If you take that description, and look up the SAE levels, you find that the minimum level that fits their description is L4.


Somehow you get lost, badly, between those 2 sentences over and over again.

. The description is EXTREMELY brief, as it relates to AUTONOMY.

And yet has all the info needed for what I just explained above, assuming you actually understand:

What they said
and
What the SAE levels say.

The only real portion that relates to AUTONOMY is basically ONE sentence about "action." You seem to be caught up in ONE WORD and say it must mean level 4 because NO ACTION = NO SUPERVISION.

This one you get even more wrong.

Not even L3 requires "supervision"- it requires being prepared to take over when prompted- on every drive you take. That is a DIFFERENT action than the supervision actions folks using the current L2 FSDb system must engage in (they ALSO have to be prepared to take over at any time, but also have to do additional actions on top).

Regardless of which, requiring ANY action violates what Tesla actually wrote, regardless of what action that is.

And, again, the minimum SAE level that requires no action of any kind is L4.

If you are describing a design intent of a system that can (even if it doesn't do it 100% of the time) do a complete drive with no action required of the person in the drivers seat, you are literally describing an L4 or higher system per SAE

Even if you don't use the words SAE or L4 when describing it.

You've held onto this belief for so long that you don't even know how to break out of it.

Because it's factually correct.

Refusing to understand facts seems to be a big issue with you.

Let me show you something, the SAE levels is a COMPLEX definition. That's why I keep pointing out that it's a 30-page document! You have to read it MULTIPLE times to really understand it!

Maybe try reading it even once and get back to us?

If you did you'd realize you were wrong about this entire discussion, and admit you can't find a single thing in there that disagrees with anything I've said.

(If you COULD find such a thing, you'd have cited it--- instead you keep making up strawmen instead of making up a valid argument)

SAE J3016 is so complex it is difficult to get everything right, even for me.

CLEARLY!

If you see something that is incorrect please let me know

Literally your entire argument is incorrect.

Anything below L4 in SAE requires action by the person in the drivers seat on every drive using the system. The chart is a summary that shows you, circled in red, the action required with every use of the system at L3. Looking to the left you see even more actions required at lower levels.

Tesla said their system will be capable of drives requiring no action.


Thus the system can not be L3 or lower. The lowest level their system could be under SAE is L4. Possibly L5 but THAT we lack enough info from Tesla to determine.


That's it.

That's the entire argument.

You've wasted pages of posts failing to grasp it, providing literally nothing to actually dispute it, and making up thing after thing nobody said to debate instead.

 

[powertoold]

And yet has all the info needed for what I just explained above, assuming you actually understand:

What they said
and
What the SAE levels say.

Great!

In conclusion, all movies are ACTION movies because breathing, walking, and talking are actions.

Did you know that "action" is used only about 5 times through the whole SAE document, and none of them relate to taking over or being prepared to take over?