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Should EVs have efficiency standards?

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Need separate standards of the EVs slip through - just like you need separate standards for trucks.

The vehicles that use the most are older vehicles, and there are no standards for them - which brings me back to the carbon tax and credit.

As you correctly point out, disincentivizing the "good" vehicles with standards is bad policy - which is exactly what new fleet standards do. Cripple the ones with the least emissions (new vehicles) and leave the old polluters on the road.
EVs don't slip through. Sure, they get a pass because they're more efficient. Just as compact cars, hybrids, etc. get a pass because they're more efficient. You continue to add distractions to your argument, so maybe clarifying it would help. I understand that you prefer a carbon tax and credit and nothing else. Great. Now, in lieu of that, you prefer what? A set of efficiency standards for ICE, a different set for EVs, another set for hybrids? None at all? Some kind of efficiency standards for old vehicles?

Your answer shouldn't include a reference to carbon tax and credit. That point is abundantly clear. ;)

My answer, for what it's worth, is that in lieu of another mechanism, there should be a single set of standards for passenger vehicles (ICE, EV, and hybrid). Realizing that we cannot reasonably do much about existing vehicles on the road from a regulatory standpoint, we have to understand that we can impact newly manufactured vehicles, which will be on the roadway for far longer than those existing ones. Having a single efficiency standard will create a lot of pressure on the segment that has the most emissions. And as it complies, the standards can get tighter and tighter. Perhaps someday before long those standards will be tight enough that many EVs will be under the pinch as well.

If we truly care about total emissions, dual standards will not achieve the fastest reduction. A single standard will discontinue purchases of the heaviest polluters, which will make a far bigger difference than shaving a tiny bit off of vehicles that, by and large, are already tremendously efficient.
 
Need separate standards of the EVs slip through - just like you need separate standards for trucks.

No sane person cross shops a Honda Civic and a F-250. So there's no reason to allow truck efficiency to weigh down the fleet efficiency. They're different vehicle classes. A Model 3 is not a different vehicle class than a VW Jetta.

Understanding that you're being disingenuous; How would the math work if different fuel types had different standards? Right now all car mpgs are averaged. Obviously selling more EVs has a HUGE impact on the average so there's a HUGE incentive to sell EVs or buy EV credits. How would a different standard for EVs maintain that incentive? .... or is that your absurd objective? To remove the incentive to replace ICE with electric?

But EVERY kWh of power comes with a carbon cost. EVERY kWh.

LOL. Even that's not true. If you aggregate EVs to use curtailment those kWh would be wasted if the EVs weren't there to use them. That's a kWh with no carbon cost :)
 
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  • Disagree
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A set of efficiency standards for ICE, a different set for EVs, another set for hybrids?
All should be the best they can be. Every pound of carbon helps.
I think a carbon tax/credit is the preferred method. In lieu of that, we need to push every carbon use to be less. A single standard does not push EVs and hybrids enough.

Should we have a single standard for generating electricity - so coal plants have the same emissions standards as natural gas plants?
I think a carbon tax/credit is the preferred method. In lieu of that, we need to push coal plants AND natural gas plants to emit less carbon.

Can a coal generator simply purchase some wind turbines and then be allowed to emit as much carbon as they want from the coal plants - since their "average" is lower due to the turbines? I say no.
 
They would have to make their ICE 20mpg instead of 16mpg, or their EV 80mpge instead of 69mpge.

Yes - they would have to work on efficiency for EVs just like ICE, not just coast because it is an EV.

But no incentive to just replace ICE with EVs? Why not? Why make a 20 mpg ICE when you can EASILY make a 70 mpge EV?

If they can't achieve what they want with a 80 mpge EV but they can with the 20 mpg ICE wouldn't the 69 mpge EV be better than the 20 mpg ICE?

.... so there should be a fine for selling a car that gets 484wh/mi but no fine for a car that gets 1100wh/mi if it happens to burn fools fuel? Explain.

That's the reality you're ignoring or don't understand. The rising efficiency requirements aren't intended to make ICE more efficient so much as they are intended to make it obsolete.
 
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But no incentive to just replace ICE with EVs? Why not?
But no incentives to replace coal with gas plants? Why not?

My answer is absolutely not. How about hydrogen fuel cells? Or lng vehicles? Or ultracapacitor storage? Or flywheel storage? Or big rubber bands? Or conservative driving education?

I won't suggest the carbon tax/credit which would encompass all the shortcomings of arbitrary government regulations. ;)
 
But no incentives to replace coal with gas plants? Why not?

There was. It was called 'The Clean Power Plan' some moron killed it in a failed attempt to save coal.

How about hydrogen fuel cells? Or lng vehicles? Or ultracapacitor storage? Or flywheel storage? Or big rubber bands? Or conservative driving education?

Sure. If they can cost-effectively improve fleet efficiency. That's WHY the standard applies to ALL cars regardless of whether they get their energy from H2, Capacitors, Fools fuel, rubber bands or hamsters on a wheel. ~600wh/mi average.

If you accept that EVs are better than ICE why are you so resistant to accelerating the transition? Do you hate your kids or something?
 
That's WHY the standard applies to ALL cars
How about the EV tax credit? Does that standard apply to ALL cars?

We need a better system of incentives that does no cater to specific lobbying groups. I wonder what that could be.... I won't say it. ;)

It was called 'The Clean Power Plan'
There you go. What a lobbying group can buy, another can pay more. What the government giveth, the goverment can taketh.
 
The CPP was an executive order. => it could be undone by an executive order.
I did not realize that. So the CPP was an executive order aimed at existing power plants.

So he could have issued an executive order aimed at existing vehicles - the old klunker poluters on the road - but chose not to?

Why not just have standards for new power plants? Seems logical - that is what they do for cars.

Government is so inconsistent - probably because everything they do is driven by different lobbying groups and their money. No consitency in policy - just a collection of arbitrary, ineffective, regulations.
 
Government is so inconsistent -

Um... yeah... when you essentially have two pilots in an airplane... one that understands they're flying the airplane and the other that thinks planes can't fly.... you're gonna get inconsistent behavior. We should probably stop letting the morons that don't believe in airplanes have the controls...

Power Plants can have a lifespan of ~70 years. For cars it's closer to 10. If we want to make progress we need to apply CO2/kWh standards to ALL power plants.
 
For cars it's closer to 10.
Probably closer to 20, since the average age on the road is 12 years.

There is a simple solution to the ineffective, incoherent policies, but it would eliminate a huge amount of government bureaucracy and limit the ability of lobbyists to get their way by buying politicians.

We know the plane can't fly - we prove it over and over again.
 
We know the plane can't fly - we prove it over and over again.

The fact smallpox is gone and we have GPS seems to disprove that... along with over 100 other great achievements... ;)

Speaking of..... who do you think should determine the 737 Max is ready to fly again?

And IMO one of the most stark and simple examples of how Good Government CAN and HAS worked can be summed up in one word. Thalidomide; The diligence of an FDA scientist Frances Kelsey saved thousands of people from birth defects while the free market was clamoring to make a buck.

Nonsense. Whether the lifespan is 10 years or 100 years, there is a replacement cycle and progress will be made.

Why is 20 years ok, but 70 years is unacceptable? Where is the science behind that? How about 50 years? 21 years?

Coal could be gone in the US in <5 years. We've already reduced our use by ~40%... wouldn't 80% be better? That would have been impossible if we'd kept those plants online to their planned retirement. The UK has already nearly eliminated the use of coal. Isn't that a good thing?
 
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The plane don't fly when it comes to carbon - or you think what we are doing is just fine??

So even though the life expectancy of cars is DOUBLE what you thought, it is still ok to just regulate emissions on new cars?

How about the clunker program where the government paid to retire old cars? Another stupid program - old cars that were hardly used were likely removed from the road - at a fixed government cost, regardless of the amount of carbon saved. But I guess it goes to the argument any carbon saved is worth it - no matter the cost. Just does not apply to EVs I guess.

The government dreams up all sorts of costly and ineffective carbon reduction programs. The biggest reduction has come about as a byproduct of increased drilling and fracking - abundant and cheap natural gas. Nothing the pilot of the plane did.

That plane just don't fly - ground it until there is a rational plan put in place.