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SR+ and 80% charge

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Bought my SR+ car at end of September 2019, 15,000 miles later and notice charging to 100% for a road trip, only getting 219 miles. At 80% 175 miles. The car had a brief time in the early winter we got 250 for 100% and 200 for 80%.
Driving 475 miles that difference meant more stops. Any reason(hope) to call Tesla for service appt?
 
Bought my SR+ car at end of September 2019, 15,000 miles later and notice charging to 100% for a road trip, only getting 219 miles. At 80% 175 miles. The car had a brief time in the early winter we got 250 for 100% and 200 for 80%.
Driving 475 miles that difference meant more stops. Any reason(hope) to call Tesla for service appt?

nope.
 
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The charge range shown is based on use history and - some of shown reduction is probably due to history of getting less miles in use. Also is likely partially due to calibration - suggest recalibrate/rebalance cells. I believe you need to go below 5% and above 95% to do the recalibration - don't keep it at these levels for very long. Calling service center will likely just suggest recalibrate.
 
the best thing this OP could do, if OP is concerned about the number on the screen they are mentioning, is to stop charging to 80% and set it to 90% and leave it there for at least a couple of weeks to let the car slowly rebalance the pack.

But... OP likely wont do that, because OP already has "80%" in his / her head.

Any call to tesla (call, appointment, etc) by OP would be completely, utterly 10000% futile as they would do some combination of telling OP to re calibrate, and trying to tell Op there is nothing wrong with OPs car. It would be a 1000000000% waste of time to involve tesla in this situation.
 
Any reason(hope) to call Tesla for service appt?

It is pointless to look at these numbers because they are inaccurate. I've got a similar number of miles and I've never looked at the number of "range miles". I looked at the DTE more often in the ICE car.

Tesla has a warranty of 30% battery degradation. Now that I think of it, I don't know how someone would realize that. Would that show up on the percent as being unable to charge past 70%?
 
the best thing this OP could do, if OP is concerned about the number on the screen they are mentioning, is to stop charging to 80% and set it to 90% and leave it there for at least a couple of weeks to let the car slowly rebalance the pack.

But... OP likely wont do that, because OP already has "80%" in his / her head.

Any call to tesla (call, appointment, etc) by OP would be completely, utterly 10000% futile as they would do some combination of telling OP to re calibrate, and trying to tell Op there is nothing wrong with OPs car. It would be a 1000000000% waste of time to involve tesla in this situation.
One usually comes to forums such as this with questions to ask for help. I have very good listening skills. So good that at Tesla when we bought our car, we were told to charge to 80% or less.—And on occasion of a road trip to charge to 100%—never a mention of charging to 90%. I’ll try charging to 90% as YOU suggested and see how it goes.
 
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Do not charge to 90. Typically charge to 80 or less. Was told by Tesla to charge to 80 and rarely 100%—just for road trip
As others had suspected, your battery bricks are likely out of balance. Basically some of them have fallen to a lower charge level than others. The solution is to occasionally charge to 90% and let the car sit. It will bleed down the highest bricks to equalize them to the same charge level. Here are the geeky details if interested.

What's the power consumption of the UMC not charging?

After that, it wouldn’t hurt to recalibrate the battery management system by discharging to lower the 15% and charging up beyond 90%.
 
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As others had suspected, your battery bricks are out of balance. Basically some of them have fallen to a lower charge level than others. The solution is to occasionally charge to 90% and let the car sit. It will bleed down the highest bricks to equalize them to the same charge level.

The issue is not one that needs solving, since the pack being "unbalanced" only affects how the estimated range is shown but not the actual power that is available when charging to 100%, not the actual range that the car can be driven.

For people affected by this issue (ie. those who chart down their rated miles and see that it has fallen), they do advise to set the limit up to 90. It is better just to know that the number is wrong and put up with it because charging to 80% is marginally better for the battery.
 
The issue is not one that needs solving, since the pack being "unbalanced" only affects how the estimated range is shown but not the actual power that is available when charging to 100%, not the actual range that the car can be driven.
I think you might be conflating recalibration with rebalancing. A battery with out of balance bricks is limited at the low end by the lowest brick and at the high end by the highest brick. That spread between low and high bricks is inaccessible battery capacity; at least that’s how I understand it works.

FWIW, I charge to 90% in cold weather, and 85% or less in the summer. Resting battery temperature is important to battery longevity as well. This is a generalized statement as I’ve seen no data for the 2170 cell chemistry. This is the closest I’ve seen. This is NCA chemistry data from here https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.0411609jes/pdf

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One usually comes to forums such as this with questions to ask for help. I have very good listening skills. So good that at Tesla when we bought our car, we were told to charge to 80% or less.—And on occasion of a road trip to charge to 100%—never a mention of charging to 90%. I’ll try charging to 90% as YOU suggested and see how it goes.

You were told to "charge to 80%" by who, though? Did someone at tesla tell you to charge to 80%? Not out of the realm of possibility, but that would be new, so would love to hear if that was the case. Tesla does advise to only charge to 100% "when you need to".

EDIT:... just read further in this thread and saw that you said "tesla" told you that. You are the first person that I have ever seen post this information (that TESLA told you to charge to 80%), so as I mentioned, I find that interesting (because there is actually no consensus on that).

Who in tesla told you to do that? Your salesperson? Someone at the service center? If thats the case, then yes, you should go back to that specific person and ask them about your loss of range, since you are following their recommendation.

On the "charge to 90%" recommendation, balancing your battery pack (over time, plugged in at 90%) can help the number on the screen read a little higher. The number on the screen does not indicate real range, though. "Charging to 80%" is probably a tiny bit better for the battery over a period of several years, than charging to 90%, although there is no consensus on exactly what that would look like over those several years.

Charging to 90% rather than 100% is significantly better for your battery, but as you go "down" and charge to less range, there are diminishing returns in the "this is better than charging more" mechanic. 50% is better than 80% for example., but its not normally convenient to keep your car at a 50% charge.

It will take some time sitting at 90% for your battery pack to balance, but thats not necessary for your road trip. For that, just originally charge to 100% and go.
 
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I think you might be conflating recalibration with rebalancing. A battery with out of balance bricks is limited at the low end by the lowest brick and at the high end by the highest brick. That spread between low and high bricks is inaccessible battery capacity; at least that’s how I understand it works.

If they are out of balance, they can be re-balanced by charging to 100%. So there is no damage done by having the imbalance. The calibration issues are caused by the imbalance and are the same thing, as I understand it.
 
If they are out of balance, they can be re-balanced by charging to 100%. So there is no damage done by having the imbalance. The calibration issues are caused by the imbalance and are the same thing, as I understand it.
Brick Balancing
Rebalancing the bricks is not accomplished by just charging to 100%. Rebalancing the bricks is needed when the bricks have disparate voltage (or charge) states. This is a physical manifestation in the car. Unbalanced bricks result in a battery pack that produces less energy than if the bricks were at optimal balance. This is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer.

It can be remedied by leaving the car near or above 90% for a relatively long period of time, measured in many days depending on imbalance. It doesn't need to be continuous. The car applies a bleed resistor to slowly lower the charge on the highest brick, in successive order, so that all the bricks are within tolerance. As linked above, the gory details from the Service Manual can be read here: What's the power consumption of the UMC not charging?.

BMS Calibration
The need to recalibrate the Battery Management System (BMS) is completely different. The BMS uses an algorithm to predict how much energy the battery pack is capable of discharging. This is equivalent to the gas gauge in an ICE car, except with gasoline you can directly measure the fluid level. This same direct measurement cannot be done in the battery. It needs to be discharged to demonstrate the energy capacity. The BMS updates it's prediction for battery capacity whenever you charge and discharge the battery. If you frequently only use a small range of the total available capacity, the errors in that prediction grow. The BMS has to be conservative and will only show you the available capacity it's confident can be produced. This is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer. (Note: this is the same as when the bricks are unbalanced, hence the frequence confusion!)

You can provide the BMS with better calibration data by discharging the battery to a low state and recharging it to a high state. I think for best effect, but don't know for certain, that this should be done in one uninterrupted charge session. I don't recall accurate and specific guidance from Tesla, but I suggest starting below 15% SOC and charging to above 90% SOC. This may need to be done multiple times depending on size of the errors. I'll reiterate that this calibration process is not changing anything physical in the car, just the predicted range from the BMS algorithm. Stated another way, your car can drive the same distance, independent of the BMS calibration. Hopefully it's obvious, but BMS calibration errors have no effect on battery degradation.

Battery Degradation
And now we get to why everybody gets excited about this topic. Battery degradation, which happens to all batteries over time and depends on usage conditions, is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer. (There's that sentence again.) Owners experiencing unbalanced bricks and/or BMS calibration errors interpret the reduced range as early battery degradation.

The challenge is that the above methods for balancing the bricks and calibrating the BMS are not conducive to a long battery life. The one-time effects are inconsequentially small, but habitually storing the battery above 90%, especially in hot weather, and routinely deep cycling the battery is not healthy for it. The battery would be expected to degrade marginally faster than one under less stressful usage conditions.
 
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Brick Balancing
Rebalancing the bricks is not accomplished by just charging to 100%. Rebalancing the bricks is needed when the bricks have disparate voltage (or charge) states. This is a physical manifestation in the car. Unbalanced bricks result in a battery pack that produces less energy than if the bricks were at optimal balance. This is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer.

It can be remedied by leaving the car near or above 90% for a relatively long period of time, measured in many days depending on imbalance. It doesn't need to be continuous. The car applies a bleed resistor to slowly lower the charge on the highest brick, in successive order, so that all the bricks are within tolerance. As linked above, the gory details from the Service Manual can be read here: What's the power consumption of the UMC not charging?.

BMS Calibration
The need to recalibrate the Battery Management System (BMS) is completely different. The BMS uses an algorithm to predict how much energy the battery pack is capable of discharging. This is equivalent to the gas gauge in an ICE car, except with gasoline you can directly measure the fluid level. This same direct measurement cannot be done in the battery. It needs to be discharged to demonstrate the energy capacity. The BMS updates it's prediction for battery capacity whenever you charge and discharge the battery. If you frequently only use a small range of the total available capacity, the errors in that prediction grow. The BMS has to be conservative and will only show you the available capacity it's confident can be produced. This is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer. (Note: this is the same as when the bricks are unbalanced, hence the frequence confusion!)

You can provide the BMS with better calibration data by discharging the battery to a low state and recharging it to a high state. I think for best effect, but don't know for certain, that this should be done in one uninterrupted charge session. I don't recall accurate and specific guidance from Tesla, but I suggest starting below 15% SOC and charging to above 90% SOC. This may need to be done multiple times depending on size of the errors. I'll reiterate that this calibration process is not changing anything physical in the car, just the predicted range from the BMS algorithm. Stated another way, your car can drive the same distance, independent of the BMS calibration. Hopefully it's obvious, but BMS calibration errors have no effect on battery degradation.

Battery Degradation
And now we get to why everybody gets excited about this topic. Battery degradation, which happens to all batteries over time and depends on usage conditions, is depicted to the driver as a reduction in the miles available on the battery level indication next to the speedometer. (There's that sentence again.) Owners experiencing unbalanced bricks and/or BMS calibration errors interpret the reduced range as early battery degradation.

The challenge is that the above methods for balancing the bricks and calibrating the BMS are not conducive to a long battery life. The one-time effects are inconsequentially small, but habitually storing the battery above 90%, especially in hot weather, and routinely deep cycling the battery is not healthy for it. The battery would be expected to degrade marginally faster than one under less stressful usage conditions.

I would click "love" next to this post 30 times if I could.

@Zoomit can I have your permission to copy this post and put it in the stickied "range" thread up top so it doesnt get lost? Excellent explanation, and it needs to be saved imo so people can be directed to it.

edit: This range thread Tesla Official Statement on Range

Not the 1200 page one
 
I would click "love" next to this post 30 times if I could.

@Zoomit can I have your permission to copy this post and put it in the stickied "range" thread up top so it doesnt get lost? Excellent explanation, and it needs to be saved imo so people can be directed to it.

edit: This range thread Tesla Official Statement on Range

Not the 1200 page one
Thanks, I’ll just repost it cause there’re a few edits I want to make.
 
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