Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[whitex]

It's simply not sustainable once they sold a certain volume of cars, especially with people abusing it (as people would with any return policy). There is a reason why no automaker has such a policy either (even if they have high satisfaction ratings).

Fact of the matter is the returned car becomes a used car, and the value plummets (generally 10% or more right off the lot), and Tesla isn't in the business of selling used cars (even though the begrudgingly take them for trade-ins, usually with lowball offers, and farming out if it's not a Tesla). It's different than demo cars which are still "new".

For people that just want to try out the car first, they have test drives, as well as extended overnight test drives.
https://www.tesla.com/drive
People can also easily rent one on Hertz or Turo.

I'm curious, how and why would people abuse it? Buying a car, arranging financing, trading in a car, etc is a lot of effort to go through for a joy tide. Say they charge $3,500 restocking fee plus $1 a mile for a Model 3/Y, when you can rent a 2024 Model Y for less than $100 a day? Heck, call it an "up to 7 day extended test drive" - fee of $500 a day + $1 a mile, but all that counts as credit towards buying the car. This way the car is not even registered and can still be sold as a demo. Such a demo that what was test driven by 5 people for a week each would have accumulated close to $20K, Tesla could EASILY sell that Model Y for MSRP - $20K (after tax and gas savings it would $11,490 for a barely month old Model Y, I bet there are people willing to put up with no stalks for that kind of a deal).

7 day money back was a great PR stunt, but that's all that was. Similar to "everyone who services their Tesla gets a top performance Model S as a loaner, and they can buy it instead of picking up their old car" - I drove 4 Model S's in a decade (2013 to 2023), never once got a top performance Model S as a loaner, not even when I serviced a week after Elon claimed it on an investor call. I know, fine print, it was only true for 1 millisecond after Elon said it, then they changed the policy, not Elon's fault people didn't know that, right?

 

[zoomer0056]

This way the car is not even registered and can still be sold as a demo. Such a demo that what was test driven by 5 people for a week each would have accumulated close to $20K, Tesla could EASILY sell that Model Y for MSRP - $20K

I understand your point; however, Tesla is not a rental company.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm curious, how and why would people abuse it? Buying a car, arranging financing, trading in a car, etc is a lot of effort to go through for a joy tide. Say they charge $3,500 restocking fee plus $1 a mile for a Model 3/Y, when you can rent a 2024 Model Y for less than $100 a day?

If there is an advantage, people are going to be prone to abuse. If there is little to no advantage, the policy is pointless and will do little to drive extra sales. That's kind of the dilemma.

Heck, call it an "up to 7 day extended test drive" - fee of $500 a day + $1 a mile, but all that counts as credit towards buying the car. This way the car is not even registered and can still be sold as a demo. Such a demo that what was test driven by 5 people for a week each would have accumulated close to $20K, Tesla could EASILY sell that Model Y for MSRP - $20K (after tax and gas savings it would $11,490 for a barely month old Model Y, I bet there are people willing to put up with no stalks for that kind of a deal).

You are proposing to turn every Tesla into a rent to own scheme, which as another pointed out, Tesla is not in the business of doing. Any of the things being discussed (whether the 7 day return or trade-in) is only to aid in new car sales. The fact of the matter is the amount of people even wanting a test drive is only a fraction of the total car buyers, and an extended 7 day test drive even smaller. There's no point to doing a scheme like that when you can gain that portion of customers with things like inventory car discounts or even a modest MSRP adjustment. And people who really need to test drive a car has many other options.

7 day money back was a great PR stunt, but that's all that was. Similar to "everyone who services their Tesla gets a top performance Model S as a loaner, and they can buy it instead of picking up their old car" - I drove 4 Model S's in a decade (2013 to 2023), never once got a top performance Model S as a loaner, not even when I serviced a week after Elon claimed it on an investor call. I know, fine print, it was only true for 1 millisecond after Elon said it, then they changed the policy, not Elon's fault people didn't know that, right?

I never said it was anything other than a gimmick, just was discussing why that gimmick eventually became unsustainable.

 

[Heckraiser]

I'm picking up my new Highland today. I'm firmly in the "stalks not buttons" camp (more so for the turn signals, the screen gear select seems to work OK) so I'll check back in in a month or so and let you know how I feel

 

[3sr+buyer]

I'm picking up my new Highland today. I'm firmly in the "stalks not buttons" camp (more so for the turn signals, the screen gear select seems to work OK) so I'll check back in in a month or so and let you know how I feel

Since there are now aftermarket stalk kits available, someone who prefers stalks or is not sure may want to look into that (with consideration of the cost of the aftermarket stalk kits).

 

[whitex]

If there is an advantage, people are going to be prone to abuse. If there is little to no advantage, the policy is pointless and will do little to drive extra sales. That's kind of the dilemma.

Why can't there can be no advantage for someone to abuse , but an advantage to those who will treat this as an insurance, should they not like it, therefore make them more likely to buy?

You are proposing to turn every Tesla into a rent to own scheme, which as another pointed out, Tesla is not in the business of doing. Any of the things being discussed (whether the 7 day return or trade-in) is only to aid in new car sales. The fact of the matter is the amount of people even wanting a test drive is only a fraction of the total car buyers, and an extended 7 day test drive even smaller. There's no point to doing a scheme like that when you can gain that portion of customers with things like inventory car discounts or even a modest MSRP adjustment. And people who really need to test drive a car has many other options.

I agree that it might not be worth while. Sometimes it's better to let go of few percent of customers who would take too much to acquire. If you can acquire the same customer with a $1,000 discount vs. 7 day test driver, absolutely, give them $1,000.

I never said it was anything other than a gimmick, just was discussing why that gimmick eventually became unsustainable.

I know you keep reiterating it, but I never got form your posts how this gimmick became unstable. What exactly was happening and how often?

 

[whitex]

I understand your point; however, Tesla is not a rental company.

All test drives are very short term rentals (for free). The longest ones I've seen from Tesla was over the weekend. Furthermore, Elon has indicated in the past that he wants Tesla to give people extended test drives in a form of a loaner while they service their older Tesla, hoping you choose to buy the loaner instead of picking up your own car.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Furthermore, Elon has indicated in the past that he wants Tesla to give people extended test drives in a form of a loaner while they service their older Tesla, hoping you choose to buy the loaner instead of picking up your own car.

Except that service loaners have not been offered for a while.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Why can't there can be no advantage for someone to abuse , but an advantage to those who will treat this as an insurance, should they not like it, therefore make them more likely to buy?

Because if the "restock" cost is too high, there is going to be little difference from the owner selling the car themselves, which makes the return policy far less attractive. It was already dubious how many additional sales that policy drove in the first place (even with no cost to the owner). If the owner has to pay a sizable restocking fee, the portion will be even smaller.

I agree that it might not be worth while. Sometimes it's better to let go of few percent of customers who would take too much to acquire. If you can acquire the same customer with a $1,000 discount vs. 7 day test driver, absolutely, give them $1,000.

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at. It's not worth it to manage this policy if there are far simpler mechanisms to drive demand. As most people have experienced, most reps have a hard time handling even a standard transaction. Having them deal with the rental to new car conversion for every Tesla sold would be a nightmare.

I know you keep reiterating it, but I never got form your posts how this gimmick became unstable. What exactly was happening and how often?

They ended it when the sales started to soar with the release of the Model Y. Basically they had plenty of demand, and even if the proportion of returns to units remained the same, the absolute volume of cases were going to soar just based on the sales increasing.

Tesla cancels its ballsy 'no questions asked' 7-day return policy

Tesla has removed its ballsy ‘no questions asked’ 7-day return policy that Elon Musk has been pushing as a show...

electrek.co

9 Tesla Quarterly Sales Charts - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! The 3rd quarter of 2023 was one of those rare quarters where Tesla had fewer sales (deliveries) than the quarter before. The reason for that seems to simply be that the company had to ... [continued]

www.google.com

They previously already amended the policy to fight against abuse, almost exactly a year prior:

Tesla's changing its deposit, return and exchange policies to help save cash

With the way the new policies are spelled out, it kind of makes the old ones seem crazy.

www.cnet.com

It's possible there was an annual review and it was shown the measures weren't enough.

 

[WyoDude]

I'm picking up my new Highland today. I'm firmly in the "stalks not buttons" camp

Who’s gonna tell em…

 

[whitex]

Except that service loaners have not been offered for a while.

Exactly, so the only way left to give people cars they will fall in love with would be extended test drives.

 

[whitex]

They ended it when the sales started to soar with the release of the Model Y. Basically they had plenty of demand, and even if the proportion of returns to units remained the same, the absolute volume of cases were going to soar just based on the sales increasing.

It absolutely makes sense that they cancelled it once demand outstripped production capacity. However, Tesla is now back in the demand less than capacity territory (at least until Elon fires a sufficient percentage of production and supply management staff to match the new, lower demand), so perhaps it's time to rethink it, maybe on new terms?

 

[whitex]

I'm picking up my new Highland today. I'm firmly in the "stalks not buttons" camp (more so for the turn signals, the screen gear select seems to work OK) so I'll check back in in a month or so and let you know how I feel

If you come back not liking it, go through the Tesla trade-in evaluator and tell us what Tesla is willing to buy back your one month old car for. Will give us some idea how much a return policy would cost them on customers who still hate it a month later.

 

[Jree]

After riding in my M3P for 48 hours and then having a Model Y Loaner, honestly it's 50/50.

I prefer no stalks, surprised to say.

 

[Heckraiser]

I'm picking up my new Highland today. I'm firmly in the "stalks not buttons" camp (more so for the turn signals, the screen gear select seems to work OK) so I'll check back in in a month or so and let you know how I feel

1/4 mile out of the dealer parking lot and I ran into my first indicator "fail." I was in the Chik fil A parking lot trying to pull out onto the feeder road and someone was coming out of the Five Guys parking lot across from me. I needed to signal my intent to the other driver (who was kindly waiting for me), but the steering wheel was totally cockeyed and upside down as I was in the middle of a tight parking lot maneuver. Would have been easier to hand signal lol.

Love the car overall though. If I don't get used to it, I'll probably try out the aftermarket stalk kit.

 

[zoomer0056]

1/4 mile out of the dealer parking lot and I ran into my first indicator "fail." I was in the Chik fil A parking lot trying to pull out onto the feeder road and someone was coming out of the Five Guys parking lot across from me. I needed to signal my intent to the other driver (who was kindly waiting for me), but the steering wheel was totally cockeyed and upside down as I was in the middle of a tight parking lot maneuver. Would have been easier to hand signal lol.

Love the car overall though. If I don't get used to it, I'll probably try out the aftermarket stalk kit.

Could the signal have been acuated before the wheel was turned as turning was the planned move? Just saying.

 

[primedive]

Except that service loaners have not been offered for a while.

Depends on where you are? I’ve always gotten one, usually old model 3s though.

 

[Heckraiser]

Could the signal have been acuated before the wheel was turned as turning was the planned move? Just saying.

There were technically two turns involved in the overall maneuver, a left and a right, so no, not really. And the other car wasn't at the intersection when I started going, so I didn't think of signaling. I would guess that most people don't signal their moves in a parking environment--the need arose when the other car showed up across from me. Yes, I know a very one-off and somewhat rare scenario, but another perfect example of how a stalk does the job in every scenario, while the button has it's limitations.

 

[TomServo]

The problem has been solved here in ILLINOIS, no one uses turn signals.

 

[Heckraiser]

I'm considering going that route as well