Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[DomDeWild]

Settled? You just opened a can of worms.

 

[shahryaran]

Settled? You just opened a can of worms.

Well that's OK

 

[zoomer0056]

Settled? You just opened a can of worms.

He's been trying to open a can but can't seem to get much traction.

 

[shahryaran]

He's been trying to open the can but can't seem to get much traction.

True

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

OP's logic is certainly backed by data. Yokes with integrated shifters and indicators are the most ergonomically ideal solution that humans have thus far devised. That's why this fantastic setup has been used on virtually every motorcycle and bicycle ever produced.

But if the operator needs to shift or indicate while the yoke is turned more than about 20 degrees, this is generally only reliable for the extensively rehearsed corners of a race track.

So yes, it's settled (it was never in question). 100% of humanity agrees (if you exclude that one annoying internet troll.) Stalkless systems work great for certain vehicles that are not street cars, and there is typically no benefit to a round wheel on these particular vehicles. People can certainly prefer the appearance or cost of a stalkless system, but there is no sound argument to claim ergonomic parity, nevermind improvement.

 

[shahryaran]

OP's logic is certainly backed by data. Yokes with integrated shifters and indicators are the most ergonomically ideal solution that humans have thus far devised. That's why this fantastic setup has been used on virtually every motorcycle and bicycle ever produced.

But if the operator needs to shift or indicate while the yoke is turned more than about 20 degrees, this is generally only reliable for the extensively rehearsed corners of a race track.

So yes, it's settled (it was never in question). 100% of humanity agrees (if you exclude that one annoying internet troll.) Stalkless systems work great for certain vehicles that are not street cars, and there is typically no benefit to a round wheel on these particular vehicles. People can certainly prefer the appearance or cost of a stalkless system, but there is no sound argument to claim ergonomic parity, nevermind improvement.

Well said

 

[LiamPope]

If you've ever tried to change volume or skip music track with the steering wheel up-side-down - well, you don't, do you, you give up trying and wait till the wheel is back to centre - then you already know how much indicators on the wheel suck! Especially if you live in Europe with small roundabouts everywhere where up-side-down is right about where the wheel is when you want to indicate to exit!

The screen wash/wipe button moving around is almost as annoying. Shifting gears, on the other hand, I don't think that'd bother me tooo much to be honest. The column shifter is still kinda new to me, and the area of the screen you will swipe to shift instead is so close, it doesn't seem all that different. Especially if the auto shifting is intelligent enough that you actually shift much less anyway.

 

[bruce4000]

At least you only use the gear shifting while you are stopped so I am ok with that compared to not having stalks for turn signals etc.

 

[gsmith123]

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen.

S and X have backup gear selection buttons below the phone charger in the center console. See this bit of the manual.

 

[Zilla91]

The column shifter is still kinda new to me, and the area of the screen you will swipe to shift instead is so close, it doesn't seem all that different.

It's is if you're driving a RHD car. The idea of having to shift gears on a screen with my weaker left hand does not appeal

 

[BitJam]

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

There is another relevant situation where a no stalk configuration makes sense. If you are convinced that the car will soon be able to drive itself, and this feature will totally revolutionize the automotive world then it makes little sense to add manual stalks to a car that will soon not need them.

IMHO, this perspective is essential for understanding many of Tesla's less popular decisions to remove manual controls. I'm not claiming they are right. I have no idea when FSD will actually work. But despite years of being wrong, Elon is still sure that FSD will be solved real soon now. His confidence is reflected in the UI design of the cars.

The removal of the stalks from the next version of Model 3 and Model Y was telegraphed by the recent addition of the "auto cancel" feature for the turn signals. Where I live this feature is worthless. But so is FSD. OTOH, there are many much more populated places where these things work great. If you offered to pay me $200/month to use FSD, I'd have to think about it.

 

[Eno Deb]

The screen wash/wipe button moving around is almost as annoying. Shifting gears, on the other hand, I don't think that'd bother me tooo much to be honest. The column shifter is still kinda new to me, and the area of the screen you will swipe to shift instead is so close, it doesn't seem all that different. Especially if the auto shifting is intelligent enough that you actually shift much less anyway.

It's really annoying when doing a 3-point turn, or when having to switch multiple times between forward and reverse while getting into/out of a tight parallel parking spot.

Has Musk ever said anything about the rationale behind this change? Some say cost savings, but given that the stalks were first dropped on the expensive models, that seems unlikely. Maybe it was because the stalks ruined the look of the yoke, and then they stuck with it when they went back to wheels?

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Yes, Elon has clearly explained his rationale:

 

[shahryaran]

Yes, Elon has clearly explained his rationale:

View attachment 970619

But isn't the developers and programmers decide what is the right thing is?

 

[ay221]

You can do like this guy and manually add a stalk.

Work in progress: stalks on 2021 Model S. (and optional round-y wheel)

@rhuber - could you please share the wiring on how to read out the analog signal from the stalk. Managed to get the turn signal voltage but not able to figure out the wiper/wash and high-beam one. All I need is to share how to send / receive the voltages from which pins, rest should be able to...

teslamotorsclub.com

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[flai54]

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

In terms of how one can tell which gear you would be if your screen breaks, since the new Model 3 gear selection is based off of the current Model S/X refresh design there are haptic buttons for the backup gear system.

In the screenshots below, you will see for the New Model 3, the backup gear selector PRND and emergency lights will be near the front dome light area, whereas the Model S/X is located down near the wireless charging pad. I don't know why Tesla opted to make it different between the 2 vehicles. Perhaps maybe this was to prevent accidental touching if you rub against the wireless charging pad which wouldn't be ideal. Of course even in the Model S/X, to prevent accidental touching, you do have to long press on the buttons to account for that function to work which is a good safety feature to have.

New Model 3 backup gear selector near the dome lights.

Refreshed Model S/X backup Gear selector near wireless charging pad

 

[Big Dog]

At least you only use the gear shifting while you are stopped so I am ok with that compared to not having stalks for turn signals etc.

yeah, I didn't get the OP's point about gear selector as one does not shift up or down while driving. I could see an issue shifting while parallel parking and therefore the yoke is turned significantly, But then one is stopped before changing from Forward to Reverse (or vice versa).

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Hmm, that'll be interesting. Tap the hazard button a little crooked and you'll just mysteriously end up in reverse?

The 3/Y currently allows shifting at speeds up to +/- 5mph. How does the S/X behave? At what speed does the shifter appear on screen and what are the speed restrictions for using the console shifter? And does it still have an emergency brake function?

Strange that none of the YouTube influencers talk about shifting or steering. Remember all the rumors of a completely different steering system?

 

[gsmith123]

The 3/Y currently allows shifting at speeds up to +/- 5mph. How does the S/X behave? At what speed does the shifter appear on screen and what are the speed restrictions for using the console shifter? And does it still have an emergency brake function?

See this section of the manual.

It does have an emergency brake (hold park) and the speed limitations are the same it sounds like (it doesn't say for sure if you can use the buttons while moving)