Silicon Desert
Well-Known Member
Hmmm that is a good thought. I hope so. Come to think of it, this seems to be how the wife and kids work. They always seem to be in shadow mode even when I am talking to them
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Stopping at traffic lights and stop signs now in "shadow mode"
- Thread starter diplomat33
- Start date
Sorry. I think it is much more likely that we will have full self-driving cars long before every traffic light in the US has V2I and cars are equipped to use it. Bureaucracy is slow. We will probably have FSD cars in the next 5 years. You really think that in 5 years, every single traffic light in the entire US will get V2I? Not bloody likely.
MrBadger
Badger out
Definitely not the case.
Many traffic lights themselves do not even know their next sequence until the very second that it starts so there is no way that a computer can predict this unless it gets help from the infrastructure itself - ie V2I.
V2I is not far off. I use to work myself in traffic control systems and technology is already there or there abouts in many cases. I think its already fitted to some cars, although last I heard, several years back, global standards was still work in progress, but there were a few local pre ratification implementations.
You don't need every traffic light to have V2I - its not a one thing or another. Its all part of the same picture, but without it, Tesla will be very much second class citizens.
The tech may be there, but I am talking about the task of retrofitting every single traffic light in the entire US with V2I.
MrBadger
Badger out
Every single traffic light does not have to be fitted. As I said, many different technologies will be part of the solution. Tesla will be second class participants without it.
Here you go,
Audi and Las Vegas and 4700 other intersections and counting
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MrBadger
Badger out
Better than Tesla FSD as they will have the information needed to do a better job of it.
If you want your self-driving to work in the entire US and not be geofenced, you need every traffic light in the entire US retrofitted with V2I under your strategy.
So yeah, it's nice that Audi has V2I in traffic lights in Vegas but that only works for self-driving in Vegas. Remember that Tesla is not doing geofencing like other FSD companies are doing. Tesla needs FSD that works in the entire US. Tesla's vision approach can do that. V2I approach can't unless every traffic light in the US is equipped with it.
Don't get me wrong. I like V2I but is a long term strategy that will unnecessarily delay FSD.
MrBadger
Badger out
Which part of "Every single traffic light does not have to be fitted" is not clear? What makes you think that every traffic light needs to be retro fitted?
Its not a replacement for visual traffic lights, its an enhancement to traffic lights over and above what is already there. Without it, you don't get the many benefits that V2I will bring and will simply be playing follow the leader, literally.
Because the only way to ensure a perfect system is to equip every traffic light with V2I. If you don't, then you are stuck with "holes" in your system where some traffic lights won't be able to communicate certain info to your car. Think of this way: if you are correct that V2I is essential to have reliable FSD at intersections, then why wouldn't every traffic light need V2I?
And I am still not sure about your "left behind" argument. If Tesla gets reliable vision detection of traffic light, then it won't need V2I.
Agree, not a party trick. Good to hear Tesla is making progress.
My e-tron has a similar feature, recognizing intersections, roundabouts and winding roads, showing a corresponding icon in the HUD and slowing down the ACC. Working quite nice when one is not in a hurry. Map- or camera based? The e-tron does not have trafic light recognition though (and will probably never get it OTA either.)
MrBadger
Badger out
I'm not saying that it is essential. But without it, Tesla will be left behind.
You don't need V2I for reliable traffic light operation as, like some have said, it works perfectly fine with our eyes. But that was a 20th century system and the world is moving on. Lots of benefits from 21st century technology, and Tesla will be left behind if it does not incorporate it into their systems.
That said, I can think of many complex junctions that would be trivial to implement with V2I and probably always remain confusing and error prone to visual based systems - humans or FSD. Below has got even more complicated with several more sets of traffic lights being installed.
The more tools that you have at your disposal, the easier job you can normally do.
I know some people like to brake and accelerate in their Teslas, but its an unnecessary driving style in many situations with modern technology and many benefits from avoiding it.
You don't need V2I for reliable traffic light operation as, like some have said, it works perfectly fine with our eyes. But that was a 20th century system and the world is moving on. Lots of benefits from 21st century technology, and Tesla will be left behind if it does not incorporate it into their systems.
That said, I can think of many complex junctions that would be trivial to implement with V2I and probably always remain confusing and error prone to visual based systems - humans or FSD. Below has got even more complicated with several more sets of traffic lights being installed.
The more tools that you have at your disposal, the easier job you can normally do.
I know some people like to brake and accelerate in their Teslas, but its an unnecessary driving style in many situations with modern technology and many benefits from avoiding it.
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think there are a thousand more important things about FSD to solve now compared to utopian V2I.
V2I is like that "electric road" that recharges your car as it drives on. Oh yes, would be great when that happens - but in the meantime Tesla needs to install SC network.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
My guess is the shadow mode has been operating since the time we got the release that talked about warning if Red traffic light is skipped & when @verygreen showed their availability through config change. So, a few months ?
What I find amusing is the idea that we could somehow have FSD that wasn't geofenced before V2I or V2E.
Or that we would even want large-scale FSD before V2E.
What good is a self-driving car if you're still stuck in traffic, and it makes traffic even worse? The only way autonomous cars can really bring the utopia we want is through V2E.
V2E solves so many issues that come up with self-driving cars.
How to communicate necessary information (construction lane changes/closures, temporary speed changes, etc)
How to maximize their efficiency by greatly increasing efficiency of stop lights, and on highways it allows cars to form trains.
How to add redundancy especially in situations where line of sight is compromised (over hills, etc).
In a sense V2E is Waze on steroids where it works regardless of a cell connection. Where it reports incidents without the driver having to enter that information.
It's basically giving the car the ability to communicate to other cars, and the road itself.
Sure I get that Tesla doesn't have it, and so its natural to want to avoid having to have something we don't have. But, I don't see any legit reason why we wouldn't really want V2E.
The Europeans will likely require V2E (or something similar) at some point (before L4 driving is authorized) so ultimately I don't think Tesla has much choice in the matter.
Tesla already does things differently in Europe with the Model 3 where it has a CCS port. That must be nice for a European where they can either charge at a Supercharger with CCS or at lots of other CCS chargers.
Or that we would even want large-scale FSD before V2E.
What good is a self-driving car if you're still stuck in traffic, and it makes traffic even worse? The only way autonomous cars can really bring the utopia we want is through V2E.
V2E solves so many issues that come up with self-driving cars.
How to communicate necessary information (construction lane changes/closures, temporary speed changes, etc)
How to maximize their efficiency by greatly increasing efficiency of stop lights, and on highways it allows cars to form trains.
How to add redundancy especially in situations where line of sight is compromised (over hills, etc).
In a sense V2E is Waze on steroids where it works regardless of a cell connection. Where it reports incidents without the driver having to enter that information.
It's basically giving the car the ability to communicate to other cars, and the road itself.
Sure I get that Tesla doesn't have it, and so its natural to want to avoid having to have something we don't have. But, I don't see any legit reason why we wouldn't really want V2E.
The Europeans will likely require V2E (or something similar) at some point (before L4 driving is authorized) so ultimately I don't think Tesla has much choice in the matter.
Tesla already does things differently in Europe with the Model 3 where it has a CCS port. That must be nice for a European where they can either charge at a Supercharger with CCS or at lots of other CCS chargers.
Tesla is just confirming it now but yes, it has probably been running since then. That would certainly make sense too.
The entire US is a very small part of the world. If something works only in "the entire US", it is working on 6% of the world. So working only in the US is as heavily geofenced as working only in Las Vegas.
Wrong, Tesla needs FSD that works in the entire WORLD. Otherwise it is another useless geofenced system, same as the other ones.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
US is over 50% of Teslas. Vegas would be some 1% or less. Remember what matters is people - not land.
Infact "entire US" is not needed. If it works to cover 90% of trips in US, it is of great help and very useful to over 50% of Tesla owners.
I was just talking from the perspective of the US because I live in the US. Making FSD work in the US is the most useful and relevant to my daily driving. Just as you live in Madrid and care about FSD working in Spain.
If Tesla defends that they are making the system not geofenced, it is land what matters, not people.
If Tesla makes something "useful" just to US owners, it is a geofenced system, like it or not. It would be the same exactly that others are doing, just increasing (a bit) the scale of the geofenced zone (from 1% to 6%).
You were stating that a system working on Las Vegas is geofenced but working on the whole US is not.
I understand you and it is easy to commit that mistake (specially living in US where Tesla has more pressence), but please, understand that it is really important to be very clear with the message. Either Tesla hardwires the US rules into his FSD or make it really work without being geofenced.
This goal (and not the technology) is what drives Tesla to a much more interesting future than Waymo's.
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