Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
The main impression I get from Rich is that the market basically leaves these things up to other market participants, and is simply hoping that enough front-running has happened. I personally feel strongly that it hasn't, and I believe Fact Checking talked on Twitter about the fact that Hedge Funds only have so much money available for plays like this. This inclusion is truly of unprecedented size. I wonder if front runners that wanted to play the TSLA inclusion put all the money they wanted to dedicate to this play into TSLA in the first 2-3 weeks after inclusion, and whether the pool of HF money might just simply not be enough to provide adequate liquidity for an inclusion of TSLA's size.

Based on my prediction model, I really think that at this level a lot of large TSLA shareholders have to be willing to dump a Cybertruck-load of shares in order to satisfy demand from indexers. I continue to believe there's more likely than not significant upside from $650. If not this week, then during the next week or two. I could be wrong, but we'll find out very soon.

If I read this right, the way it'll work is regular limit orders are also considered in the closing cross, so say if there's a bunch of sell orders at $1K limit, the price discovery that starts at 3:55 will keep bumping the price up until those are triggered as well. It might get ugly in how high it'll have to jump but hopefully "liquidity providers" are prepared with adequate amount of shares and we'll just see the final smaller adjustments to the closing price.

So overall I see a few scenarios playing out with fairly distinct action items:

1. Adequate liquidity is sitting there waiting to be deployed, there will be a slight adjustment to the stock price in the last 5 min for the final fine-tuning of the balance, huge volume at close and it is all over. Nothing to do here.

2. Substantial sell side deficit, but still adequate liquidity available. Price spikes 5 min before close, enough shares change hands at that price to satisfy index funds, and price returns roughly back to pre-3:55 levels on Monday. This means one would need to participate via on close order or within ~4 min of close time to take advantage of the price spike.

3. Inadequate liquidity, price spikes last 5 min, but also stays high on Monday opening cross and possibly through Monday with big volume. This means there will be a substantial time frame to participate in an elevated stock price, at least both Fri close and Mon open.

4. You say it's not very likely, but listing it here for completeness: buy side deficit, price drops into close. Probably stays down on Monday? Not sure.

Personally I don't see how #3 is likely, price will simply have to keep going up coming into close since it's a simple arbitrage, even if the price is $10K at 3:57 it still makes sense to buy if Nasdaq cross data still says there's not enough sellers. You can then be sure that if you turn around and place a sell MOC order on those shares it'll settle at higher than $10K. The only way I see #3 happening is that entities with a lot of shares that would be willing to sell at a certain outrageously high price simply aren't set up to participate in the closing cross.

EDIT: now that I think about it, we can easily tell which scenario is it going to be at maybe 3:56. If it stayed the same/ went up/went down and stabilized, it is respectively scenarios 1, 2, 4. If it went up and kept going up all the way to 4PM, we're in #3 since that means the closing cross is still out of balance. There's of course also the opposite of #3 where it goes down and keeps going down, which would indicate a gross oversupply on the sell side.
 
Last edited:
A strategy I am adding on for tomorrow is to maximize my buying power in my margin account by closing most of my sold puts before close. Then I will buy as many as possible just OTM calls that are cheap - $0.25 or less each just before close that I could possibly exercise after hours in the case of a big spike. I anticipate this trade will be a complete loss but if the SP does spike ($25+) in the first hour in after hours trading I will exercise the calls and immediately sell them for the after hours price. This could give me profit in the range of $50-200K. I see that as worth it for a $400-600 lottery ticket.

I expect the market to price this scenario into the call premiums. They might not be .25$. Cheers
 
please read what I wrote again. if there is a liquidity issue, it gets less exposed in Friday's MOC. it seems quite clear to me that there are advantages to the index funds to keep out of public view the scale of any shortfall of shares available to them on Friday's closing cross.

If the index funds don't want to expose the imbalance, they will simply not post buy orders for all the shares they need. They will batch them and only post the next buy order after the previous one has filled. It looks like you are thinking that the index funds MUST trade only at the end of the day on Friday. But trading between Fridays close and Mondays open doesn't guarantee them the inclusion price anymore than buying shares on Thursday or Monday. You still need a willing seller and that seller can go wherever they want and ask the price they want or look for a suitable bid. And I don't see how trading in a dark pool in the middle of the night gets the funds anything as liquidity during those hours tends to be very low. The trades still need to be reported before Monday's open.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rarity
If the index funds don't want to expose the imbalance, they will simply not post buy orders for all the shares they need. They will batch them and only post the next buy order after the previous one has filled. It looks like you are thinking that the index funds MUST trade only at the end of the day on Friday. But trading between Fridays close and Mondays open doesn't guarantee them the inclusion price anymore than buying shares on Thursday or Monday. You still need a willing seller and that seller can go wherever they want to get the price they want. And I don't see how trading in a dark pool in the middle of the night gets them that as liquidity during those hours tends to be very low. The trades still need to be reported before Monday's open.

Market-on-Close (MOC) Orders - IBKR

MOC.jpg


Unless they are going to use limit orders, they have to place them by 15:55, and can not take them back after.
 
Meh, I'm positioned for the next three weeks, other than a 31 Dec $900 call I bought as a lottery ticket (before the IV crush, so in the red right now).

After dwelling on all the possibilities, I decided I didn't want the stress of waiting to the close tomorrow, then seeing what I could get out of it. Wouldn't surprise me at all that the closing cross will satisfy the demand - you can be sure there are many well-financed players in this game who are looking for profit from this event and they've had a long time to prepare for it. I suspect most retail will be left holding the baby.

So I'm guessing a flat day today and the SP dropping a little post-inclusion as retail speculators cash-out.

But like everyone else around here, I have no idea, I'm just bringing five years of watching this stock to bear - most of the time, the big sharks win this game.
 
Meh, I'm positioned for the next three weeks, other than a 31 Dec $900 call I bought as a lottery ticket (before the IV crush, so in the red right now).

After dwelling on all the possibilities, I decided I didn't want the stress of waiting to the close tomorrow, then seeing what I could get out of it. Wouldn't surprise me at all that the closing cross will satisfy the demand - you can be sure there are many well-financed players in this game who are looking for profit from this event and they've had a long time to prepare for it. I suspect most retail will be left holding the baby.

So I'm guessing a flat day today and the SP dropping a little post-inclusion as retail speculators cash-out.

But like everyone else around here, I have no idea, I'm just bringing five years of watching this stock to bear - most of the time, the big sharks win this game.

Until yesterday I would agree with you. After the price action when the volume came back yesterday I'm not that sure anymore. As soon as someone tried to buy a significant pot of shares the price increased.
 
Market-on-Close (MOC) Orders - IBKR

View attachment 618762

Unless they are going to use limit orders, they have to place them by 15:55, and can not take them back after.

I understand that. But the idea was they would be trading in the middle of the night because they didn't want their orders reported until the next morning. That is unlikely to get them the closing price. So, if they are willing to do that, they should be willing to trade at other times too.

In other words, it's not the time proximity to the close that matters, it's how close the price is to the closing price. But, yeah, if they don't have shares by Friday's close they will probably be willing to buy them at night or early morning or whenever they can get them as long as there is liquidity to be had. But I really don't see how the fact that the trades don't need to be reported until the morning will help them because anyone participating in an alternative exchange will be able to see the orders and they will all get reported to everyone else before NASDAQ opens anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FrankSG
The main impression I get from Rich is that the market basically leaves these things up to other market participants, and is simply hoping that enough front-running has happened. I personally feel strongly that it hasn't, and I believe Fact Checking talked on Twitter about the fact that Hedge Funds only have so much money available for plays like this. This inclusion is truly of unprecedented size. I wonder if front runners that wanted to play the TSLA inclusion put all the money they wanted to dedicate to this play into TSLA in the first 2-3 weeks after inclusion, and whether the pool of HF money might just simply not be enough to provide adequate liquidity for an inclusion of TSLA's size.

Based on my prediction model, I really think that at this level a lot of large TSLA shareholders have to be willing to dump a Cybertruck-load of shares in order to satisfy demand from indexers. I continue to believe there's more likely than not significant upside from $650. If not this week, then during the next week or two. I could be wrong, but we'll find out very soon.
What I find awfully interesting is that this is all happening just 2 weeks from Q4 deliveries report. With a couple of trading days already falling out due the Xmas.

Now I know, with this SP level almost everything is priced in and also this whole thing pales in comparison to the price pressure of 15-30% of the Tesla float headed to different funds (as per Rob's thesys).

However this is not just any old deliveries report. This is Q4, which is also full year 2020, in a year when every other automaker will have double digit losses while Tesla grows ~30% and the company is bound to hit the psychological threshold of half a million cars.

(I will need to sell some shares as I plan to upgrade our household from zero to 2 EVs in Q1 but I really wouldn't want to sell until January so I can postpone paying taxes to '22. So I am watching eagerly and really hope this rally extends into early January with S&P inclusion running into Q4 sales numbers.)
 
https://www.etf.com/sections/features-and-news/sp-500-etfs-brace-tesla-trade?nopaging=1

S&P 500 ETFs Brace For Tesla Trade
ETF.com Dec. 9 interview with Rich Lee, with whom Rob Mauer vlogged tonight. Many of the same questions and replies.

"But to your point, why wouldn't Tesla stock just run another, say, 25-50% given that everybody has to buy it? That's where having a robust and dynamic market comes into play, because there are market participants, whether it be proprietary traders, hedge funds or prop shops whose job is to look for these announced index changes and trade them ahead of time, and hopefully accumulate a position in advance of the index and be suppliers of liquidity.

The sell side is a liquidity partner in this endeavor. If we look at an index fund that cannot deviate, and it cannot trade early, if you don't have the sell side there prepositioning or accumulating position, you may have that scenario where the stock just runs uncontrollably to the upside. You want a robust ecosystem."

Most helpful, thanks for posting!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prunesquallor