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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I think Tesla's earnings growth for the next decade forward will be about 25% per year (fwiw, this works out to going from about $8-$10 in 2019 to about $64-$80 in 2028, which is in line with what I've modeled in the past for 2026).

Last time I checked the PEG (price earnings/growth ratio) of the S&P 500 was between 1.5 and 2.0. This means using a PEG of 1.5 for valuing Tesla would be conservative compared to the market's valuation of the S&P 500.

Assuming 1) that conservative PEG of 1.5 for Tesla and 2) a 25% growth rate implies a PE of 37.5 for valuing Tesla. Using a PEG of 2.0 implies a PE of 50.

fwiw, as far as I'm concerned, all the "automaker or tech stock, how do you value Tesla?" chatter we often hear in the media is almost entirely a red herring to distract from what I've come to see (with some help from Peter Lynch) as the core to determining a reasonable PE... a company's expected growth rate.

If the expected per share earning in 2029 is only 64~$80, then there is not much reason to hold this stock. We can't assume that 2029 and beyond the growth rate will remain 25%. In stead, I assume P/E 12, use the $64~80 earning, the stock would worth $768~960 in 2029. If that's the expectation, it's better to just invest in the index.

My prediction is by 2029 Tesla will have 15 Gigafactories for battery and car production. Each factory produces 800,000 cars a year. (3 million Model 3; 7 million Model Y; 2 million Pickup Trucks, plus small amount of other things). 10% net earnings (2/3 from selling cars, 1/3 from energy and Tesla Network). Share float 150m due to mild share buyback. At P/E of 12, per share price will be $7600 in year 2029. I think this is the most likely scenario.

The key for this to happen is Model 3 and Model Y will continue to get better, continue to reduce production cost (both are guaranteed to happen) and the general AI self driving has to work (which I give it 90% chance). Maybe I'm too optimistic, I think 20 fold is highly likely to happen in the next 10 years.
 
Beer prices have gone up a lot since I moved to here, but at 2000$ I will match that...
At $3000 I'll host a party right outside GF1 and invite all you guys/girls.
Just bought a $330 put weekly to help drive the price up. Thank me later. Maybe I’ll start a GoFundMe
I bought @HOD 340p too, so remember to thanks me when we hit $420 SP this friday.
 
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Tezla on Twitter
 
If the expected per share earning in 2029 is only 64~$80, then there is not much reason to hold this stock. We can't assume that 2029 and beyond the growth rate will remain 25%. In stead, I assume P/E 12, use the $64~80 earning, the stock would worth $768~960 in 2029. If that's the expectation, it's better to just invest in the index.

My prediction is by 2029 Tesla will have 15 Gigafactories for battery and car production. Each factory produces 800,000 cars a year. (3 million Model 3; 7 million Model Y; 2 million Pickup Trucks, plus small amount of other things). 10% net earnings (2/3 from selling cars, 1/3 from energy and Tesla Network). Share float 150m due to mild share buyback. At P/E of 12, per share price will be $7600 in year 2029. I think this is the most likely scenario.

The key for this to happen is Model 3 and Model Y will continue to get better, continue to reduce production cost (both are guaranteed to happen) and the general AI self driving has to work (which I give it 90% chance). Maybe I'm too optimistic, I think 20 fold is highly likely to happen in the next 10 years.

lols, wasn’t trying to scare anybody with a $64-$80 rough EPS number for 2028.

1) That implies a ~$1400-$2400 share price for me. I see Tesla likely to have many years of 15%-20% average growth from that point in 2028 forward, as I still see the world’s automakers collectively still not hitting 50% EV supply, while by 2028 we will likely be approaching 100% consumer demand for EVs. High probability of a very wide growth runway for Tesla in the years beyond 2028.

2) My earlier post would of benefitted from this caveat- I don’t include the Tesla Network in that estimate.

While I do think the TN has the potential to be worth several thousand dollars per share at some point, that is much more speculative. Regulatory and consumer behaviors could dramatically change the shape of Tesla’s opportunity. Regulatory not just re when AVs are approved, but potential nationalism in which automakers have what access to which markets. Then there is the question of how many players develop the tech and in what sequence, and with what business models, which also can dramatically change the shape of Tesla’s EPS opportunity from the TN.

Given the outstanding returns for the part of the business I feel quite confident about meaningfully predicting, unless TSLA explodes, for now I don’t have to worry about my not having a crystal ball re forecasting the value of the TN- I’m sticking with my core shares for years to come regardless of the TN’s prospects. Fortunately, I think it’s quite likely that by the time the TN earnings potential matters to my decision to hold or sell, it will be more realistic to try to forecast a meaningful range for future TN eps.
 
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As ridiculous and pompous as he appears and as misleading and manipulative as he writes, he actually has a point with the above article.

Per Tesla's own information that he is citing, Supercharging can be quite expensive, e.g.
0.26 $/kWh in California,
Supercharging

Is that not significantly more than what residential electricity costs there?

Per the same page, Texans pay 0.20 $/min, so at 120 kW that works out to 0.10 $ / kWh, a much better price.

In the Munich Tesla store I was told 0.17 € / minute, i.e. 0.085 € / kWh @ 120 kW. (Mod: edited at user request. --ggr).

No one on TMC needs to be disappointed, the Whale man is making a misleading comparison with VW because he compares their theoretical, future charging powers with Tesla's actual (and by now quite old) charging power. So by the time VW's charging materializes, Tesla Superchargers can be expected to be faster.

Still, I had expected the Supercharging in the USA to be cheaper.

Also, by always charging by the minute Tesla would discourage Supercharging when the battery starts to be full, i.e. when it starts to be a waste of everyone's time - in addition to simplifying their pricing. So that would make sense to me.
For many, many it is $0.00 - so how much cheaper can it get? Want them to pay you? Porsche about a year ago said their charge system would only cost about the same price as a petrol fill up. Speculation not very helpful.

What are some actual prices people are paying??
(often local regulations are a major factor.)
Charging at home at night often the lowest cost electricity.
 
Probably not, but their efforts are having less and less of an effect. Tesla's continued growth and success are the true short killers. At some point they will literally not be able to sustain their position and will quietly go away (heard anything from Jim Chanos lately?). Until then we just keep on keepin' on.

Dan
Dan I think you're correct just by looking at the increasingly ridiculous articles on SA and the replies to such articles. While I hate to even open them, it's great to see that over half of the replies are to call out how ludicrous the articles are, these replies by far have the most likes, and many of the great replies calling BS are written by members of this club and specifically this thread! Makes me proud to be associated with you all!
 
TSLA appears to be in a nice climb, post-Brexit vote. (I have been wrong about this sort of thing more than half of the time)

In other news... if you want to have a Schadenfreudian giggle... check this out
Driverless car laser ruined camera

Holy heck. How can a lidar system be safe for human eyes and still be powerful enough to burn out a CCD sensor? They're trying to claim that cameras are more susceptible to burning out than the retina. Colour me extremely skeptical about that. I can take a photo of the sun without damaging my camera, but I can't stare at it.

ALSO: If the lidar system isn't camera-safe... what exactly is it doing to the cameras on other self-driving cars?

Briefly scanning over the literature on lidar it sounds like "human eye damage" is their limiting factor, and so they try to make their systems as powerful as they can while being just under the eye damage threshold. I can guarantee that this is going to go wrong a lot early on - even if only whenever there's a hardware fault (scanning stops, pulsing stops, power is wrong, etc) or when you have multiple vehicles in the same area (picture looking at a busy street of autonomous vehicles and every single one of the hundreds of cars are scanning you).

I see some talk of switching to 1550nm LIDAR when the costs come down, since it's more readily blocked by water and thus little light reaches the retina. But if it's more readily absorbed by water then you're making the weather obstruction problem worse.
 
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As ridiculous and pompous as he appears and as misleading and manipulative as he writes, he actually has a point with the above article.

Per Tesla's own information that he is citing, Supercharging can be quite expensive, e.g.
0.26 $/kWh in California,
Supercharging

Is that not significantly more than what residential electricity costs there?
......
In Southern California, I pay $0.18 per kWh. In NorCal, I pay $0.21 for the first 300kWh per month and $0.28 after that. So, $0.26 is quite possible.