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Oil & Natural Gas Not Needed for Chemicals; Solar will Dominate

In my essay on why energy consumption is about to explode in the coming decades, primary chemical production was listed as one of the main drivers of the growth. We can make methane, hydrogen, gasoline, diesel, naphtha, paraffin, methanol, and much more from atmospheric CO2, water and sunshine.

This is not some future research project that is optimistic speculation on a brand new technology. In World War II, when the Nazis were running low on oil supplies due to Germany's unfortunate poverty of domestic reserves, they resorted to substituting oil with domestically-abundant coal. How? By gasifying coal into syngas and then converting the syngas to liquid hydrocarbons with the Fischer-Tropsch process. The process had been invented two decades earlier in 1926 by Franz Fischer and Hans Tropsch in their research as chemistry professors at a university in Germany. Decades later, South Africa resorted to using this process because of harsh trade embargoes from countries that disapproved of Apartheid which restricted their oil supply. Many gas-to-liquids (GtL) plants exist today for converting methane from natural gas into liquids. Even Shell and Chevron have some of these plants.

The science and basic technology is understood. The problem has always been economic competitiveness with oil and with alternative uses for natural gas. A 2017 study published in the academic journal Energy Economics by a team of MIT researchers calculated that GtL economics could work out if the gas-to-oil price ratio fell below a certain threshold. The authors were pessimistic about the future of the technology if using natural gas, but I think they weren't accounting for the advent of cheap sustainable methane gas that could one day pass that price threshold and which may receive carbon sequestration subsidies.

So, if we accept the premise that ultra-cheap solar around 2030 will make synthetic, sustainable methane sourced from atomspheric CO2 cheaper than methane sourced from natural gas, we should expect increased usage of synthetic methane for production of liquid hydrocarbons. If the price falls far enough, it would eventually be cheaper than sourcing from oil. In a commodity market such as the chemicals industry, the lowest-cost production method always wins in the long run because customers just buy from the lowest bidder.

The implications for Tesla Energy total addressable market are staggering if you do the math on how much solar energy would be required for H2 and CH4 production as the feedstocks for this process, even under thermodynamically ideal reaction efficiency. And then the plot thickens with SpaceX clearly signaling that they will go all out on minimizing the cost of making sustainable rocket propellant from atmospheric CO2 as soon as they achieve full and rapid reusability for Starship/Superheavy, which translates to SpaceX making huge amounts of H2 and CH4 in the sunshine in southern Texas. Their goal is to make life multiplanetary and increase the probability that the light of consciousness is not extinguished, which means in part helping civilization on Earth survive, which means solving environmental sustainability. To this end, Elon Musk has offered a $100M prize for carbon sequestration. Hmm...


View attachment 812398
(From Wikipedia)




A South African chemicals company called Sasol has been doing what I’m describing with syngas made from South African coal since 1954. I have learned they actually started doing this not because of apartheid embargoes but because of abundant local supplies of low-grade coal.

From fuels to chemicalsEdit

The fuel price is directly linked to the oil price, so is subject to potentially large fluctuations. With Sasol only producing fuels, this meant that its profitability was largely governed by external macroeconomic forces over which it had no control. How could Sasol be less susceptible to the oil price? The answer was right in front of them, in the treasure chest of chemicals co-produced in the Fischer–Tropsch process. Chemicals have a higher value per ton of product than fuels.
In the 1960s ammonia, styrene, and butadiene became the first chemical intermediates sold by Sasol. The ammonia was then used to make fertilizers. By 1964, Sasol was a major player in the nitrogenous fertilizer market. This product range was further extended in the 1980s to include both phosphate- and potassium-based fertilizers. Sasol now sells an extensive range of fertilizers and explosives to local and international markets, and is a world leader in its low-density ammonium nitrate technology.[16]
With the extraction of chemicals from its Fischer–Tropsch product slate coupled with downstream functionalization and on-purpose chemical production facilities, Sasol moved from being just a South African fuels company to become an international integrated energy and chemicals company with over 200 chemical products being sold worldwide. Some of the main products produced are diesel, petrol (gasoline), naphtha, kerosene (jet fuel), liquid petroleum gas (LPG), olefins, alcohols, polymers, solvents, surfactants(detergent alcohols and oil-field chemicals), co-monomers, ammonia, methanol, various phenolics, sulphur, illuminating paraffin, bitumen, acrylates, and fuel oil.
In South Africa, the chemical businesses are integrated in the Fischer–Tropsch value chain. Outside South Africa, the company operates chemical businesses based on backward integration into feedstock and/or competitive market positions for example in Europe, Asia, and the United States.


They could conceivably get into the business themselves or maybe partner with SpaceX. If nothing else, their existence demonstrates that a synthetic hydrocarbon economy can work.

Vast amounts of electricity will be required for the hydrogen electrolysis
and CO2 concentration with lime calcination that would dwarf humanities current energy consumption by at least an order of magnitude. Plants will probably have on-site solar to reduce transmission costs since most of the load would be resistive heaters that can be directly powered with DC from the solar panels. The theoretical minimum energy required for creating 1 kg of H2 gas from H20 is 40 kWh. First principles say that for every million billion (Mod edit at user request --ggr) metric tons (10^12 kilograms) of H2 electrolyzed you’re guaranteed by the Laws of Thermodynamics to need at least 40 Petawatt-hours of electricity. In reality, operations will adopt energy-intensive electrolysis processes to exploit cheap solar in order to save costs in other areas, so the energy consumed will probably be a lot higher per kg.

Electricity will also be needed to run lime calcination cycles to capture carbon dioxide in a bed of pulverized limestone (CaCO3):

1654311090977.png

(Source: Terraform Industries whitepaper)

It looks like the solar cost trend is going to get us past a cost parity threshold where suddenly there is a strong capitalistic profit incentive to curtail finding / mining / refining oil & gas and instead use copious amounts of solar photovoltaic power to suck CO2 out of the atmosphere as fast as possible. I hope this is true because if so this is the best news ever.
 
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A South African chemicals company called Sasol has been doing what I’m describing with syngas made from South African coal since 1954. I have learned they actually started doing this not because of apartheid embargoes but because of abundant local supplies of low-grade coal.

From fuels to chemicalsEdit

The fuel price is directly linked to the oil price, so is subject to potentially large fluctuations. With Sasol only producing fuels, this meant that its profitability was largely governed by external macroeconomic forces over which it had no control. How could Sasol be less susceptible to the oil price? The answer was right in front of them, in the treasure chest of chemicals co-produced in the Fischer–Tropsch process. Chemicals have a higher value per ton of product than fuels.
In the 1960s ammonia, styrene, and butadiene became the first chemical intermediates sold by Sasol. The ammonia was then used to make fertilizers. By 1964, Sasol was a major player in the nitrogenous fertilizer market. This product range was further extended in the 1980s to include both phosphate- and potassium-based fertilizers. Sasol now sells an extensive range of fertilizers and explosives to local and international markets, and is a world leader in its low-density ammonium nitrate technology.[16]
With the extraction of chemicals from its Fischer–Tropsch product slate coupled with downstream functionalization and on-purpose chemical production facilities, Sasol moved from being just a South African fuels company to become an international integrated energy and chemicals company with over 200 chemical products being sold worldwide. Some of the main products produced are diesel, petrol (gasoline), naphtha, kerosene (jet fuel), liquid petroleum gas (LPG), olefins, alcohols, polymers, solvents, surfactants(detergent alcohols and oil-field chemicals), co-monomers, ammonia, methanol, various phenolics, sulphur, illuminating paraffin, bitumen, acrylates, and fuel oil.
In South Africa, the chemical businesses are integrated in the Fischer–Tropsch value chain. Outside South Africa, the company operates chemical businesses based on backward integration into feedstock and/or competitive market positions for example in Europe, Asia, and the United States.


They could conceivably get into the business themselves or maybe partner with SpaceX. If nothing else, their existence demonstrates that a synthetic hydrocarbon economy can work.

It will be quite some time before direct carbon capture to hydrocarbon synthesis is remotely economical. Biomass to syngas to hydrocarbon has much better prospects in the near term. The Pearl GTL plant in Qatar is the biggest GTL facility I know of- using Arabian nat. gas as the feedstock, of course.
 
A South African chemicals company called Sasol has been doing what I’m describing with syngas made from South African coal since 1954. I have learned they actually started doing this not because of apartheid embargoes but because of abundant local supplies of low-grade coal.

From fuels to chemicalsEdit

The fuel price is directly linked to the oil price, so is subject to potentially large fluctuations. With Sasol only producing fuels, this meant that its profitability was largely governed by external macroeconomic forces over which it had no control. How could Sasol be less susceptible to the oil price? The answer was right in front of them, in the treasure chest of chemicals co-produced in the Fischer–Tropsch process. Chemicals have a higher value per ton of product than fuels.
In the 1960s ammonia, styrene, and butadiene became the first chemical intermediates sold by Sasol. The ammonia was then used to make fertilizers. By 1964, Sasol was a major player in the nitrogenous fertilizer market. This product range was further extended in the 1980s to include both phosphate- and potassium-based fertilizers. Sasol now sells an extensive range of fertilizers and explosives to local and international markets, and is a world leader in its low-density ammonium nitrate technology.[16]
With the extraction of chemicals from its Fischer–Tropsch product slate coupled with downstream functionalization and on-purpose chemical production facilities, Sasol moved from being just a South African fuels company to become an international integrated energy and chemicals company with over 200 chemical products being sold worldwide. Some of the main products produced are diesel, petrol (gasoline), naphtha, kerosene (jet fuel), liquid petroleum gas (LPG), olefins, alcohols, polymers, solvents, surfactants(detergent alcohols and oil-field chemicals), co-monomers, ammonia, methanol, various phenolics, sulphur, illuminating paraffin, bitumen, acrylates, and fuel oil.
In South Africa, the chemical businesses are integrated in the Fischer–Tropsch value chain. Outside South Africa, the company operates chemical businesses based on backward integration into feedstock and/or competitive market positions for example in Europe, Asia, and the United States.


They could conceivably get into the business themselves or maybe partner with SpaceX. If nothing else, their existence demonstrates that a synthetic hydrocarbon economy can work.
And, from an earlier post: "In my essay on why energy consumption is about to explode in the coming decades, primary chemical production was listed as one of the main drivers of the growth. We can make methane, hydrogen, gasoline, diesel, naphtha, paraffin, methanol, and much more from atmospheric CO2, water and sunshine."

You are conflating two quite different starting points for these chemical syntheses: Sasol, and the more theoretical one mentioned in a slightly previous post. The Sasol synthesis starts from coal; the other one starts with atmospheric carbon dioxide and will require energy to get the carbon out of that, enough to make it less likely to be commercially viable. From a greenhouse gas warming climate perspective, starting with coal is no better than starting with oil.
 
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It will be quite some time before direct carbon capture to hydrocarbon synthesis is remotely economical. Biomass to syngas to hydrocarbon has much better prospects in the near term. The Pearl GTL plant in Qatar is the biggest GTL facility I know of- using Arabian nat. gas as the feedstock, of course.
SpaceX is working on it right now, and their sole target is to reduce the cost per ton to orbit.

The whole premise was that if we get 5-10 more years of 10-15% annual cost declines for solar, the economics can start to make sense compared to natural gas.
 
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And, from an earlier post: "In my essay on why energy consumption is about to explode in the coming decades, primary chemical production was listed as one of the main drivers of the growth. We can make methane, hydrogen, gasoline, diesel, naphtha, paraffin, methanol, and much more from atmospheric CO2, water and sunshine."

You are conflating two quite different starting points for these chemical syntheses: Sasol, and the more theoretical one mentioned in a slightly previous post. The Sasol synthesis starts from coal; the other one starts with atmospheric carbon dioxide and will require energy to get the carbon out of that, enough to make it less likely to be commercially viable. From a greenhouse gas warming climate perspective, starting with coal is no better than starting with oil.
The point of bringing up Sasol was to show that a viable market can be had for liquid fuels and chemicals from syngas Fischer-Tropsch synthesis. I am predicting that solar is trending to get so cheap that generating syngas starting from carbon capture and water electrolysis will be cheaper than getting syngas from coal or natural gas.
 
So batteries, Tesla. Batteries, by the millions and millions.

Yup. Elon says 100 GWh per year from each of Giga Texas and Berlin. At 100 wh/cell, that's ONE BILLION battery cells from each factory, every year.

Just so folks here realize the scale we're talking about, that "Millions and millions" is the DAILY output (2.74 million cells each day, from each 4680 factory).

Then they build moar factories... Let the rEVolution begin! :D

Cheers to the Longs!
 
I never said he was always right.

Except for when he's obviously joking, he says what he believes without any hidden agenda.
How about this one?

The press ran with it. Example: Elon Musk wants to fix your banged-up Tesla in under an hour.

The bolded part sounds like a certain politician and the excuses some people make when he said certain things: don't take him so literally. :rolleyes:

No hidden agenda? Look at all the autonomy claims like Tesla Autopilot director contradicts Musk’s self-driving timeline points out "Musk described full autonomy as "basically a solved problem" in 2016.". I pointed out the crazy predictions that he's made over and over, yet he keeps selling a very expensive package to people are convinced that it'll arrive soon or within the time they have their car.

It's pretty clever. He's letting people pay for the privilege of being an unpaid beta tester. And, since it's beta, they wash their hands of all liability saying the driver should be in control. And, when Tesla has one of these used cars in their inventory (e.g. from trade in or lease return), they can double dip by removing it and charging that $ again. Or, they can jack up the price by adding it and raising the price. Car not selling? Flip it back to off and drop the price.
 
SpaceX is working on it right now, and their sole target is to reduce the cost per ton to orbit.

The whole premise was that if we get 5-10 more years of 10-15% annual cost declines for solar, the economics can start to make sense compared to natural gas.

Direct carbon capture on Earth won't reduce cost per ton to orbit anytime soon. It will be far more cost effective on Mars though, with its 96% CO2 atmosphere vs. Earth's .04%. Hydrogen will be the tougher element to source on Mars I suspect.
 
@cwerdna

How exactly did you come across this "elonmusk.today" site?
I didn't recall but was able to find my post where I mentioned how I found it in July 2021: Tesla's autopilot, on the road - Page 76 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

I liked how it was a convenient spot for many of Elon's claims when it comes to autonomy vs. some that I have a harder time remembering like Tesla Autonomy Day: A Comprehensive Timeline of Elon Musk's Journey to Here.

Wayback Machine only has real content there going back as for as June 2019. Not clear when real content there actually popped up.
 
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I think Fremont is running materially higher in Q2 over Q1 to make up for some of Shanghai, but 60% YoY increase for the month of May in US sales can't possibly be right.....right?

Yes Fremont production would expected to be up YoY since S/X refresh ramp was still at a crawl at this time last year, but 60% seems way too high. That would be in the neighborhood of producing 20k more vehicles in May 2022 over May 2021.

Q2 2021 had 10 ships from SFO, Q2 2022 has had 3 so far (Tesla Carriers). That is about 30k per Q or 10K per month.

Much of the increase in US sales can be accounted for by the reduction of exports.
 
I suspect we aren’t seeing the “super bad feeling” email because it went to a smaller number of people, all who are probably aware that Elon has individualized emails in the past to identify leakers.
Elon should build in subtle differences to emails for each suspected leaker to ID them. Make it very subtle, like a space before a period or question mark, and/or an intentional typo unique to specific emails, etc. This task can be delegated to an assistant....or there might be a script or app to generate subtle differences to catch the leaker.