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The agreement is created under the direction of the Chinese government (Ministry of Industry to be specific), if the Chinese government asks you to sign something, you sign it, or else...
šŸ˜‚šŸ¤£ Is that like ā€˜you canā€™t have a business in China without a Chinese partnerā€™ kind of stipulation?

Please, donā€™t make me laugh. Waitā€¦too late.
The question is, now that Tesla signed this, does this mean the government will unblock the Shanghai factory expansion?
You have no proof. But even if Tesla was blocked because China feared Tesla would purposefully kill Chinese EV companies; Elonā€™s good intentions, negotiating skills, and charisma to the rescue.

Tesla IS a Chinese company now, so you can stop worrying.
 
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That happens all of the time for various reasons.
The Amiga .vs. IBM PC
The 8086 .vs. 6800 CPU
Betamax .vs. VHS
Word Perfect .vs. MS Word
Borland C++ .vs. MS C++
GM .vs. anyone else...
The list goes on and on...
Then think of 110/120v normal household electricity supply vs 220v and;
The nearly endless supply of connector types;
and a nearly endless array of 'standards' and practices, including laws that were built for good and logical reasons at one time or another, somewhere of another.

My point is that those now illogical 'standards' are ubiquitous in law, regulation and practice.
From LHD to RHD and many others one is often not really 'better' or 'worse', just different while,
In other cases, such as CCS1, the basic solution is deeply flawed (in this case by a fragile retaining clip).
In still other cases, such as 12v ICE auto battery practice, the standard solution is obsolete for everyone.

For TSLA investors the real story is that the Tesla habitual 'first principles' thinking persistently challenges inefficient or obsolete common practice or standards.
- In NACS TSLA will benefit, although we do not have enough data to know the financial consequences;
- In 48V we now there will be significant weight, reliability and energy savings, and we know that Tesla is just the first OEM to completely switch, and essentially every OEM really wants to change. That really started with start-stop mild hybrid systems although none were brave enough to go all the way:

-Integrated factory automation, GEICO paint shop etc: Nobody has approached Tesla factory expertise, yet, but several Chinese and new entrants are trying to do so. This will take longer, but successful OEM's will inevitably adopt Tesla-pioneered solutions. Those who do not will die!

-FSD is a very different issue, but if the Tesla solution can indeed reach beyond level 4 to level 5 there will be very serious rush to adopt by many OEM's even though they'll need redesign to vehicle systems to do that. It is entirely possible that other approaches may succeed as well, but the first level 5 success will immediately foment major adoption. Nobody really Knows but if it does Elon may well be correct about the trajectory, if not the details.

Almost no securities analyst can conceive of the value created by First Principles thinking, essentially because few people honestly can even understand a 'zero-based-budget' because they invariably begin with what is existing. Tesla has packaged its vehicles to appear to be the same while they change dramatically in fact. Every one of us who has owned multiple generations of Tesla products understands that, while the rest of the world sees static design.

What that all portends is continued volatility as huge gains happen when some distinct success appears, followed by huge drops when traditionalists see market saturation, early because they see only obsolescent cars and a few dregs in odd areas such as storage products. They see no advantage in batteries or anything else, even factory and distribution efficiency. They even do not value the Supercharger network at all.

When we invest we MUST keep all those points clearly in our minds. for if we do not we'll panic every time the share price falls.
All the facts are clearly documented here in various threads, replete with copies documentation of growing pains and evolutionary suffering in FSD and elsewhere. Darwin really understood evolution. For our sanity as investors we must keep clearly in focus that First Principles will safely help Tesla to weather the evolutionary pains.
 
Here is the translation of the agreement from Electrec:
First, we will abide by the rules and regulations of the industry, regulate marketing activities, maintain a fair competition order, and not disrupt the fair competition order of the market with abnormal prices. Second, we will pay attention to marketing methods, will not exaggerate or conduct false marketing, not to mislead consumers to attract attention and increase customer acquisition. Third, we will put quality first, use quality-oriented, high-quality products and services to meet the peopleā€™s needs for a better life. Fourth, we will actively fulfill our social responsibility, and take an active role in helping to stabilize economic growth, increase confidence and prevent risks, and work together to make a contribution to national economic growth.
  • Promote core socialist values, actively fulfill social responsibilities, and take on the heavy responsibility of maintaining steady growth, strengthening confidence, and preventing risks.
Good to see that Tesla is going to promote core socialist values.

 
You have no proof. But even if Tesla was blocked because China feared Tesla would purposefully kill Chinese EV companies; Elonā€™s good intentions, negotiating skills, and charisma to the rescue.
We don't need proof. It's simply a possible scenario and a simple one at that. China is looking out for China first, and yes it can interfere with Tesla if it so chooses. It comes to reason these things are related to Shanghai Expansion. Only time will tell.

This does remind me of the initial new of Shanghai being 100% Tesla owned - we were all amazed and proud of Tesla. But wasn't there some give with that deal as well, like to create a Design Center in China along with the inherent proximity to some Intellectual Property and Factory Automation?
 
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Interesting tweet discussion regarding Ford sales through.

I understand the sales numbers Ford is stating. As we know, Ford's revenues are sales to dealerships. My guess is they offered dealers some sweet deals to take additional inventory. If my guess is correct, there is going to be lots of pain in future quarters, when dealers are stuck with inventory they can't sell and Ford is no longer able to 'stuff the channel.'
 
That happens all of the time for various reasons.
The Amiga .vs. IBM PC
The 8086 .vs. 6800 CPU
Betamax .vs. VHS
Word Perfect .vs. MS Word
Borland C++ .vs. MS C++
GM .vs. anyone else...
The list goes on and on...
Gave you a ā¤ļø for the Amiga mention. I managed an Amiga (only) dealership, and we were also a Newtek dealer, so I attended the Amiga Expos and Video Toaster unveiling in Cali.

Still have one of the T-Shirts I made for my staff!

Screenshot 2023-07-06 at 09.27.38.png
 
Interesting tweet discussion regarding Ford sales through.

I understand the sales numbers Ford is stating. As we know, Ford's revenues are sales to dealerships. My guess is they offered dealers some sweet deals to take additional inventory. If my guess is correct, there is going to be lots of pain in future quarters, when dealers are stuck with inventory they can't sell and Ford is no longer able to 'stuff the channel.'
No ill will to Ford. Of all the OEMs I actually am starting to hope they pull through the transition (although the $9.2B handout loan irks me and it's not even my tax dollars being flushed). However, no sympathy for their dealers. I hope the fleecing market adjusted pricing leads to their downfall. Already Ford is starting to talk like they realize the stealerships are a ball and chain for them. Nevertheless, their (and all OEMs') announcement of adopting NACS is going to severely limit their sales until they actually have a NACS port on their vehicles. I know I would hold off buying a non-Tesla BEV until I could get one with a NACS port.

2025 they say. Well I hope they realize Tesla won't be standing around waiting for them to join the race in another couple of years.

"Competition is coming". Indeed.
 

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Interesting tweet discussion regarding Ford sales through.

I understand the sales numbers Ford is stating. As we know, Ford's revenues are sales to dealerships. My guess is they offered dealers some sweet deals to take additional inventory. If my guess is correct, there is going to be lots of pain in future quarters, when dealers are stuck with inventory they can't sell and Ford is no longer able to 'stuff the channel.'
It's bad even for Ford ICE Trucks. A lot of inventory and super expensive. Maybe the plan to limit supply since Covid (supply chain excuse) has backfired and sales are drying up.

This guy's been claiming this for a while.
 
We don't need proof. It's simply a possible scenario and a simple one at that. China is looking out for China first, and yes it can interfere with Tesla if it so chooses. It comes to reason these things are related to Shanghai Expansion. Only time will tell.

This does remind me of the initial new of Shanghai being 100% Tesla owned - we were all amazed and proud of Tesla. But wasn't there some give with that deal as well, like to create a Design Center in China along with the inherent proximity to some Intellectual Property and Factory Automation?
Ah, speculation for speculationā€™s sake.

More importantly, itā€™s not a bad thing to get along with others (including compromising) even if you donā€™t believe in how they live. Teslaā€™s mission is for ALL.
 

View attachment 953723

View attachment 953722

Interesting tweet discussion regarding Ford sales through.

I understand the sales numbers Ford is stating. As we know, Ford's revenues are sales to dealerships. My guess is they offered dealers some sweet deals to take additional inventory. If my guess is correct, there is going to be lots of pain in future quarters, when dealers are stuck with inventory they can't sell and Ford is no longer able to 'stuff the channel.'
More pain than -114% margins!?
 
šŸ˜‚šŸ¤£ Is that like ā€˜you canā€™t have a business in China without a Chinese partnerā€™ kind of stipulation?

Please, donā€™t make me laugh. Waitā€¦too late.

You have no proof. But even if Tesla was blocked because China feared Tesla would purposefully kill Chinese EV companies; Elonā€™s good intentions, negotiating skills, and charisma to the rescue.

Tesla IS a Chinese company now, so you can stop worrying.
But i thought Teslas were the most "Made in America" type of cars /s
 
More pain than -114% margins!?
Exactly my thoughts. Ford Osborned their own e-Lightening until they install the NACS connection. (Why not wait on the announcement right?)

As a result, they will save money (reduce losses) while they retool/design for better margins. And if they go all in (castings, 48V etc...), this would be a great time to plan for FSD integration, or at least a pathway for a future intersect there.
 
Nevertheless, their (and all OEMs') announcement of adopting NACS is going to severely limit their sales until they actually have a NACS port on their vehicles. I know I would hold off buying a non-Tesla BEV until I could get one with a NACS port.

Well, I agree that Ford and it's Dealship model is in peril w. flagging sales of their EVs, but I don't think it's due to not having a NACS port. I use the CCS1 adapter on my Tesla routinely (and the J-1772 adapter) and it's almost no bother at all. Ford has even stated that they'll mail a CCS1-to-NACS adapter to existing Ford owners in 2024Q1 for no addtional cost.

No, I think the real reason Ford EVs sales are cratering is due to their value proposition. Who would not prefer a Model Y over a Mach E at current prices? And who would buy a Lightning when Cybertruck is imminent in a few months (well, the specs at least, so you can compare).

Transit van? I don't get it, maybe they can't get enough batteries, or they aren't promoting sales because Ford loses money on every one they build?


Ford Blew? Blows? U decide... ;)

Cheers!
 
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We don't need proof. It's simply a possible scenario and a simple one at that. China is looking out for China first, and yes it can interfere with Tesla if it so chooses. It comes to reason these things are related to Shanghai Expansion. Only time will tell.

This does remind me of the initial new of Shanghai being 100% Tesla owned - we were all amazed and proud of Tesla. But wasn't there some give with that deal as well, like to create a Design Center in China along with the inherent proximity to some Intellectual Property and Factory Automation?

Mexico and the talk of opening in India should help Tesla.

I think the Chinese government will find that it's a lot easier to make money from China-manufactured cars from foreign companies, or under formerly-foreign makes like Volvo and MG.
 
Well, I agree that Ford and it's Dealship model is in peril w. flagging sales of their EVs, but I don't think it's due to not having a NACS port. I use the CCS1 adapter on my Tesla routinely (and the J-1772 adapter) and it's almost no bother at all. Ford has even stated that they'll mail a CCS1-to-NACS adapter to existing Ford owners in 2024Q1 for no addtional cost.

In spring 2024. And it's all up in the air. Even if I wanted a Ford EV I wouldn't be rushing to buy.

We now have a NACS transition and that could give people an excuse to wait. Lots of reasons not to spend big right now.

No, I think the real reason Ford EVs sales are cratering is due to their value proposition. Who would not prefer a Model Y over a Mach E at current prices?

Or an (IONIQ|EV)[0-9] now that HyunKia upped incentives.

And who would buy a Lightning when Cybertruck is imminent in a few months (well, the specs at least, so you can compare).

Forget Cybertruck. The Lightning got expensive.
 
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Interesting tweet discussion regarding Ford sales through.

I understand the sales numbers Ford is stating. As we know, Ford's revenues are sales to dealerships. My guess is they offered dealers some sweet deals to take additional inventory. If my guess is correct, there is going to be lots of pain in future quarters, when dealers are stuck with inventory they can't sell and Ford is no longer able to 'stuff the channel.'
Rather than tweets, maybe Automotive News reporting:
At EV inventores rising about 90 days, shipments to dealers continuing (recognizing sales for the OEM) the inventories are rising. According to the latest reporting of dealer and customer incentives there still are not any incentives other than inventory and interest rate subventions, nothing indicating crisis. However reports of actual transactions prices (not disclosable) are showing substantial Ford dealer ASP reductions on BEV's. The next couple of weeks will have dealer incentives, which are certain to be rising, plus captive floor planning subvention.

This is sad news, especially since it really has been dealer resistance in large part because of objections to the Ford reorganization. Some of that is now being reported but most of the acrimony seems to be staying within the Ford dealer and distribution channels. In the meantime it seems the charging infrastructure issue is helping to discourage sales.

Over the years this sort of dealer rebellion has happened from time to time. The OEM's generally capitulate. This one will not go away.

Ultimately the argument is about OTA updates without dealer profit, lack of servicing revenue etc.
A few years ago Hyundai caved to such pressure by making BEV battery cooling medium with mandatory dealer replacements. Oil changes were just too profitable to miss.
 
Forget Cybertruck. The Lightning got expensive.
Besides, IMO the Lightning pulled interest from Ford brand loyalists as well as the anti-Tesla folks, or both. Unlikely they would switch to Cybertruck so easily, and so early (by waiting). I don't think Cybertruck has anything to do with this - many still believe Cybertruck will not get made.

No, this is all Value Proposition as agreed. And is also why I think they should retool the Lightning, ICE frame on up, and address costs in Mfg, and sell direct if at all possible at this later date.
 
Did not read even after translation. But isnā€™t agreements among companies about pricing of goods - illegal? Maybe if Iā€™d read the foreign language article I wouldnā€™t be asking that question.
It is in China, might be acceptable there. Not unlike OPEC setting limits on production... cutting off their nose to spite their face IMO but it happens.

If China wants to increase the percentage of BEV's sold, not allowing lower prices seems a bit contradictory to me.
 
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Ultimately the argument is about OTA updates without dealer profit, lack of servicing revenue etc.
A few years ago Hyundai caved to such pressure by making BEV battery cooling medium with mandatory dealer replacements. Oil changes were just too profitable to miss.
I dismissed mentions of this as "likely unsubstantiated internet chitterchatter", but with you stating it as fact, I'll take it as reality. As in: so perfidious as should be criminal.
 
I dismissed mentions of this as "likely unsubstantiated internet chitterchatter", but with you stating it as fact, I'll take it as reality. As in: so perfidious as should be criminal.
But it sort of backfired on them. They used a coolant that crystalized in the system clogging it. That required a recall where they flush the system, and replace the coolant with a different variety. A number of people waited as long as possible to go in for the recall so that their first battery coolant flush was covered for free by the recall.

"Replace low conductivity coolant" at every 40k miles is in the "factory required" section.

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