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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I thought it just meant that Tesla isn't making vans and/or delivery vans yet...and vans are useful models and the ICE ones pollute a lot, so it's good to have somebody making EV versions...
Between Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat, Ram etc) which has BEV van dominance in several markets resulting from historical leading role in various van types in the major EU markets, along with Ford and VAG depending on the market. Right now all three have BEV vans in numerous markets, with more coming. All of them are doing well with them, not least because of the typical EU large city prohibition/restriction of non-BEV vehicles in center cities.

The Americas are beginning to receive some of those, both North and South, although the progress in the Americas is not so robust.

Many people watching these developments wonder why Tesla is not entering the van markets. I don't pretend to know, but my guess is that the existing players are both deeply entrenched and moving very aggressively for BEV vans and larger trucks also. Further, when including busses and minivan passenger vehicles, there are BEV's, both BYD and many others that are already highly successful. Given the Tesla mission, my thought is that Tesla will continue to focus on Tesla Energy, with large commercial storage (Megapack+ with worldwide high success) and mass Residential (numerous projects with large developers) and individual residential also. All of that has built from the base with South Australia Hornsdale Power Reserve which has given Tesla global respect. That Tesla advantage still continues as they only promote global (i.e. anywhere) commercial projects. We often understate the scope of what Tesla has already done in this area (65 countries and counting) and just how complete is their offering:

In short, Tesla is going where few to no competitors have gone, and develops attractive markets from zero, with South Australia and Kauai as prime examples.

OK, cars may not be growing so much this year. Energy is growing! Before anybody loses their composure, everyone should know that large commercial projects also almost always work on 'project financing terms' which almost always provide basic cash flow as project advances but the profit margin almost always happens only at the end. Cash flow is usually decent, but the P&L is very lumpy.

In sum, what would Tesla make vans when they are being made well by many? Making excellent cars is driving more stogy competitors to improve quickly. Tesla still must lead the non-Chinese markets and keep incentivizing all fmajor car OEM's to do better. Some, such as Siemens, Huawei and BYD are beginning to bring integrated commercial solutions to market. Siemens always partners with others for batteries, Huawei is still vestigial outside China for complete solutions, but their electronics first approach is gaining markets. Right now BYD is the only one other than Tesla that offers complete turnkey solutions for residential, commercial and utility level.

The result of all that is that Tesla Energy has already created that market and is ready to have massive growth in coming years. Why? Because thermal solutions for 'peaker plants' are both slow and expensive. The only instant solution most utilities know to to install huge diesel container-sized generators. Expensive!! Only Tesla and BYD offer container-sized ready to go battery storage(BESS). Those can constantly solve most peaker problems. Solar and wind both demand that storage but nearly all the world is till stuck using those ancient peaker solutions. That lag in BESS is harder than it looks because of the software and sensors required to manage energy stability (i.e. grid services). That is the Tesla secret sauce with only BYD offering a complete solution even close to equal.

Hopefully we still have people such as @Paracelsus who know much more than do I about these issues.
 
German consumer electricity price: blue=base price and yellow=cheapest available price. Everybody has free choice and the trend is clear. Switching off nuclear power in April 2023 and pushing renewable energy wherever possible is the key.
One major issues rarely discussed is the disadvantage of nuclear in highly variable demand situations. Skipping all the nuclear problems other than that, if nuclear si to be used it's crucial companion should be large scale Battery storage (BESS) that can accumulate the excess production during low demand, feed back during peaks. Of course the same thing is true for most coal plants also. They both should not be there, but when they still are they should eb operated with as little fluctuations possible and thus will be far
cheaper and more efficient to operate with BESS to stabilize demand fluctuations.

During the last few years batteries have become cheap enough and plentiful enough to make such solutions easy to do.

The German/Belgian solution is incentivizing consumers of energy large and small to use BESS as grid stabilizing solutions. Those are elegant in their simplicity, but demand superb software coupled with efficient grid operations. it is that success that is also enabling Siemens and others to begin to compete fro global grid services solution including BESS with wind, solar and all other energy sources.

As I just mentioned is a previous post, in different words, we are today entering an entirely new unprecedented global push towards grid management. The world has never had such ability to integrate diverse energy sources while intermediating and balancing demand and supply.

Tesla set this off with Hornsdale while the most adept countries with these solutions became suddenly adept primarily because of panic about Russian natural gas, nuclear issues and urban pollution, among other things.

Thinking seriously about all this should help us all to understand how consequential 2024 is to all of us including for TSLA. Securities analysts never see the present clearly, much less the future. When TSLA told us this would be a year of transition many of us dutifully panicked and drove the share price down. That may well not be resolved quickly.

Serious people will realize that the world is changing before our eyes, as @NicoV keeps showing us with Belgian energy pricing. Every well managed utility-level supplier is overwhelmed right now with demand. That demand will go on for years, simply because the entire planet needs grid and energy revolution.

If we can understand that we can also understand why the Tesla transformation to energy supply from Autobidder to Supercharger to BESS is where both sustainable growth and profitability join. Frankly, this is not new, Tesla applied for and received energy supply licenses in numerous places years ago. Most of us yawned if we noticed at all. The ones who did were told we're actually wrong.

2024 is as momentous as was 2008 and 2012 for TSLA. By 2026 we'll have massive success again or political and climate mismanagement will make this irrelevant. The former we can prepare ourselves to benefit. The latter is not within our control.
 
Between Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat, Ram etc) which has BEV van dominance in several markets resulting from historical leading role in various van types in the major EU markets, along with Ford and VAG depending on the market. Right now all three have BEV vans in numerous markets, with more coming. All of them are doing well with them, not least because of the typical EU large city prohibition/restriction of non-BEV vehicles in center cities.

The Americas are beginning to receive some of those, both North and South, although the progress in the Americas is not so robust.

Many people watching these developments wonder why Tesla is not entering the van markets. I don't pretend to know, but my guess is that the existing players are both deeply entrenched and moving very aggressively for BEV vans and larger trucks also. Further, when including busses and minivan passenger vehicles, there are BEV's, both BYD and many others that are already highly successful. Given the Tesla mission, my thought is that Tesla will continue to focus on Tesla Energy, with large commercial storage (Megapack+ with worldwide high success) and mass Residential (numerous projects with large developers) and individual residential also. All of that has built from the base with South Australia Hornsdale Power Reserve which has given Tesla global respect. That Tesla advantage still continues as they only promote global (i.e. anywhere) commercial projects. We often understate the scope of what Tesla has already done in this area (65 countries and counting) and just how complete is their offering:

In short, Tesla is going where few to no competitors have gone, and develops attractive markets from zero, with South Australia and Kauai as prime examples.

OK, cars may not be growing so much this year. Energy is growing! Before anybody loses their composure, everyone should know that large commercial projects also almost always work on 'project financing terms' which almost always provide basic cash flow as project advances but the profit margin almost always happens only at the end. Cash flow is usually decent, but the P&L is very lumpy.

In sum, what would Tesla make vans when they are being made well by many? Making excellent cars is driving more stogy competitors to improve quickly. Tesla still must lead the non-Chinese markets and keep incentivizing all fmajor car OEM's to do better. Some, such as Siemens, Huawei and BYD are beginning to bring integrated commercial solutions to market. Siemens always partners with others for batteries, Huawei is still vestigial outside China for complete solutions, but their electronics first approach is gaining markets. Right now BYD is the only one other than Tesla that offers complete turnkey solutions for residential, commercial and utility level.

The result of all that is that Tesla Energy has already created that market and is ready to have massive growth in coming years. Why? Because thermal solutions for 'peaker plants' are both slow and expensive. The only instant solution most utilities know to to install huge diesel container-sized generators. Expensive!! Only Tesla and BYD offer container-sized ready to go battery storage(BESS). Those can constantly solve most peaker problems. Solar and wind both demand that storage but nearly all the world is till stuck using those ancient peaker solutions. That lag in BESS is harder than it looks because of the software and sensors required to manage energy stability (i.e. grid services). That is the Tesla secret sauce with only BYD offering a complete solution even close to equal.

Hopefully we still have people such as @Paracelsus who know much more than do I about these issues.
I have to be honest, I don't read many of your short stories due to length. But don't take it the wrong way as I rarely read a book unless it's something technical. It's more me and how I can't sit still. I must always do something, even TV is hard at times, but I also might live to age 110.

An idea keeps coming up in my head about how we could create a GPT for this thread. The thought started with wondering how my grandkids might further understand who I am once I'm gone. To be able to have a conversation with them. This thread as a whole, but also individualized.

I further imagine a TMC virtual room of folks here. With all that we've written, for years now, there should be a way to encapsulate all things Soulpedl. In this sense, if this continues after I'm gone (example only) I could still chime in with my 2 cents!

It's all possible, today. Weird or useful? Do we want to hear from people with past views to comment on the future? Could it represent me even more concisely and accurately than in my own person? Essentially a brain dump that could continue, and eventually stored on some cat collar named Orion. Could easily be a business, for lost loved ones. Wow...
 
Giga NY might be getting busy pretty soon:

"According to the previous report, EG Group intends to deploy more than 20,000 chargers across about 3,600 sites in the United Kingdom and continental Europe. If the partnership with Tesla continues, it might become a noticeable revenue stream for Tesla."

 
When did Hertz decide to sell all of their Model 3's? It's quizzical thinking it was after this BP deal (which it was):



Getting supercharging into their entire fleet sites worldwide, over the long-term, to be run across all EVs supporting the NACS standard...just seems like a huge missed long-term strategic opportunity. I would have thought that'd dramatically reduce down the cost of buying Model 3's en masse too.
 
Never. (They didn't, they only decided to sell some of them.)
And many in those sales were NOT Tesla's. Only about 400 as I recall were Tesla, but not sure (and does seem too low)... so I asked ChatGPT4.

You
How many Tesla's did Hertz sell?

ChatGPT
Hertz had originally planned to purchase 100,000 Tesla electric vehicles, aiming to electrify its fleet. However, they took delivery of only about half of this order, amounting to roughly 48,344 Tesla vehicles. Later, Hertz decided to sell off 20,000 of these Teslas, which represented a third of its electric vehicle fleet. This decision was influenced by factors such as high depreciation costs and the higher repair costs associated with electric vehicles. Additionally, there was less profitability in renting out electric cars compared to traditional vehicles, and a preference among drivers for petrol or diesel-powered cars. This move was part of Hertz's strategy to better balance supply with expected demand for EVs and to improve profitability by investing in petrol-powered cars.

You
20,000 tesla's? I believe it was only about 400 and the rest were other brands. Please check your source.


ChatGPT
I apologize for the confusion earlier. Let me clarify the details regarding Hertz's sale of its electric vehicle fleet. Hertz did indeed plan to sell off a large portion of its electric vehicles, including Teslas. However, I'll need to double-check the exact number and the distribution among different brands. Please give me a moment to find the most accurate and up-to-date information.

You're correct that not all of the 20,000 electric vehicles Hertz decided to sell were Teslas. While Hertz did confirm its intention to sell approximately 20,000 electric vehicles from its U.S. fleet, which constitutes about one-third of its global EV fleet, these vehicles are a mix of makes and models. Although the majority of vehicles listed for sale on Hertz's website are Teslas, the sale includes multiple brands.[/B]
 
Never. (They didn't, they only decided to sell some of them.)

Plus, it would seem that Hertz didn't really plan well for deploying an EV rental fleet. Reports here indicate there was very little training done for the Hertz staff, much less for their customers unfamiliar with how an EV operates differently from ICE.

I think Hertz management likely know they are going through teething pains, and in the long run will get over the hump.

After all, EVs are an inevitability. The only question for Hertz is whether they will be renting them, or running a Robotaxi fleet. Or, both!
 
Thanks and good catch! He DID say this in the 2019 video. "...with regulatory approval in some jurisdictions". How else can people take this?
Thanks for the ammo, nobody believed me when I pitch this as a possibility. Lots of down votes (even angry at times).

Not to rehash it though, just do this instead because NOBODY knows. 🍿
It shouldn't be long, and I still think it's this year. It's criminal not to.


Again (and what seems like weekly at this point), waiting for "regulatory approval" to deploy RTs at all is not a thing

Tesla could deploy them right now if they worked, and it requires no regulators to "approve" it.

At least a dozen US states allow autonomous vehicles to be deployed and the only things they require are:

You self-certify the car is self driving (usually in line with some SAE definitions of capabilities)
You self-certify the car can obey all traffic laws
You self-certify the deploying entity has insurance

In some states you have to submit a form saying the above, in some you don't even need to do that. But nobody checks if any of those certifications are true.

That's it. It's completely a TRUST ME BRO system with no regulatory approval needed

Only a VERY VERY few states allow self driving AND have actual regulatory approval of any kind (California being the main one).


The only thing stopping Tesla from announcing next week they already have deployed robotaxis in a bunch of US states is Tesla doesn't have a working robotaxi.

Any talk of "regulators" preventing it is a 100% red herring.
 
Again (and what seems like weekly at this point), waiting for "regulatory approval" to deploy RTs at all is not a thing

Tesla could deploy them right now if they worked, and it requires no regulators to "approve" it.

At least a dozen US states allow autonomous vehicles to be deployed and the only things they require are:

You self-certify the car is self driving (usually in line with some SAE definitions of capabilities)
You self-certify the car can obey all traffic laws
You self-certify the deploying entity has insurance

In some states you have to submit a form saying the above, in some you don't even need to do that. But nobody checks if any of those certifications are true.

That's it. It's completely a TRUST ME BRO system with no regulatory approval needed

Only a VERY VERY few states allow self driving AND have actual regulatory approval of any kind (California being the main one).


The only thing stopping Tesla from announcing next week they already have deployed robotaxis in a bunch of US states is Tesla doesn't have a working robotaxi.

Any talk of "regulators" preventing it is a 100% red herring.
And yet you offer no alternate meaning to his words. And meanwhile some services have already been kicked out of cities, so obviously somebody has a say in the matter. Yes it's been discussed for years now. I interpret it to mean an agreement with the Mayor in one of many possible scenarios. YMMV.
 
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And yet you offer no alternate meaning to his words


I mean, his words included that it'd be done several years ago. So the only explanation needed is his words were factually inaccurate.


Elon himself admits he's sometimes wrong--- why can't you?



. And meanwhile some services have already been kicked out of cities, so obviously somebody has a say in the matter.

In California. The one state I cited as being overly regulated compared to others.


Yes it's been discussed for years now. I interpret it to mean an agreement with the Mayor in one of many possible scenarios. YMMV.


Why would they need an agreement with someone who has literally no authority of any kind to "regulate" self driving on public roads?

Again, in a BUNCH of US states they can put self driving cars on the road the moment they have working ones without any "regulatory approval" needed- in fact in many of those states the law specifically prevents individual cities from applying added regulations to such vehicles.


That's an absolute fact you can read in the actual laws if you wish to do so.

Or you can continue to take wild hopium stabs at a single Elon comment from years ago that already missed its target by a mile.


That first one seems more useful for understanding the reality of the situation, but you do you.
 
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Henceforth, I am going to be deleting with absolutely no warning, explanation or PM to posters any entries I find that provide a bare link with zero discussion as to why readers should click on it.

This has been a rule since the very first iteration of this DISCUSSION thread, many millions of views and almost one million posts ago, and violators of it not only are being rude to others, they are being lazy. I cannot abide laziness, and I will not tolerate rudeness.
 
I mean, his words included that it'd be done several years ago. So the only explanation needed is his words were factually inaccurate.


Elon himself admits he's sometimes wrong--- why can't you?





In California. The one state I cited as being overly regulated compared to others.





Why would they need an agreement with someone who has literally no authority of any kind to "regulate" self driving on public roads?

Again, in a BUNCH of US states they can put self driving cars on the road the moment they have working ones without any "regulatory approval" needed- in fact in many of those states the law specifically prevents individual cities from applying added regulations to such vehicles.


That's an absolute fact you can read in the actual laws if you wish to do so.

Or you can continue to take wild hopium stabs at a single Elon comment from years ago that already missed its target by a mile.


That first one seems more useful for understanding the reality of the situation, but you do you.
Wow, chillax.
I don't recall saying that regulation could stop it either.
 
I mean, his words included that it'd be done several years ago. So the only explanation needed is his words were factually inaccurate.


Elon himself admits he's sometimes wrong--- why can't you?





In California. The one state I cited as being overly regulated compared to others.





Why would they need an agreement with someone who has literally no authority of any kind to "regulate" self driving on public roads?

Again, in a BUNCH of US states they can put self driving cars on the road the moment they have working ones without any "regulatory approval" needed- in fact in many of those states the law specifically prevents individual cities from applying added regulations to such vehicles.


That's an absolute fact you can read in the actual laws if you wish to do so.

Or you can continue to take wild hopium stabs at a single Elon comment from years ago that already missed its target by a mile.


That first one seems more useful for understanding the reality of the situation, but you do you.
At this point it seems like "regulatory approval" would be more applicable to deploying FSD as a Level 2 ADAS with hand-free functionality, it feels like the regulators are directing a lot more scrutiny towards that type of thing where these advanced driver assist systems are operating in cars that still have human drivers who are responsible.

IE the NHTSA seems to have more input into the nags and monitoring with Autopilot/FSD, was sending letters asking questions about “Elon Mode”, etc
 
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