Thoughts on CCS DC Fast Charging?

[ark205]

I recently looked at the new i7 and my jaw hit the floor. I haven't been that impressed with a car in a long time.

My wife and I own/have owned 3 teslas over the last 5 years. We no longer plan road trips. We just get in and go.

My concern is the CCS charging network is a disaster. Plugshare, out of spec, etc make it seem like a true nightmare trying to road trip around.

What is it like out there? I am seriously thinking I have to pass on any CCS car due to lack of DC fast charging options.

 

[LoudMusic]

There are plenty of people road tripping in ccs cars. It's just easier in a Tesla and you've gotten spoiled

Maybe keep one of each and do your own review.

 

[Cosmacelf]

It depends. Plenty of stories of Christmas Eve disasters on the CCS network from newbies waiting in line for hours to charge. In my area, I found exact one spot where I’d be ok planning a charging stop from LAX airport down to San Diego (110 miles) because it’s the only spot that had more than one CCS charger greater than 200 kW (all the others were mostly single 50 kW chargers).

On the other hand, you do hear about people successfully making trips using the CCS network, so YMMV.

If I needed to do a lot of long distance driving, I’d be sticking with a Tesla.

What do you like about the i7?

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

...

My wife and I own/have owned 3 teslas over the last 5 years. We no longer plan road trips. We just get in and go.

My concern is the CCS charging network is a disaster. Plugshare, out of spec, etc make it seem like a true nightmare trying to road trip around.

What is it like out there? I am seriously thinking I have to pass on any CCS car due to lack of DC fast charging options.

CCS is not fully "cooked" yet. I use (and have used) both the CCS system and the Supercharger system for long road trips. CCS EVs are only useful for local travel. If you attempt a real road trip depending on the CCS system you will be very sorry.

Wish this wasn't so, and one day the system will work fine. Just not yet.

Rich

 

[stymeron]

The CCS network is not good, and is incredibly frustrating to use. I started my EV journey with a Kia Soul, bought a Tesla M3 while waiting for my Ioniq 5 to arrive. I was not a Tesla fan but enjoyed the car. When I got my Ioniq 5 eventually, I was excited but that was short lived. If you only ever do local trips a CCS car will be great but if you do anything where you need to use CCS chargers, you'd hate it! A month ago I traded my Ioniq 5 in for a Model Y and I'm WAY happier.

The problems with CCS are, there are not many chargers around and those that are around, many are not working, and the ones that are working are way slower than they should be. Additionally you need a separate app for each brand, and the time it takes to start charging is something between longer, and never (move to another charger).

 

[ark205]

All very helpful and what I was sadly expecting.

The i7 had incredible build quality. I’m such a sucker for gadgets and options even though I would never use them. The stereo and that cinema screen are unlike anything else.

I’m probably going to get a plaid instead. Still a small screen in the back. Good enough.

 

[theothertom]

We recently took a 1000 mile (one way) road trip in the southeast and stopped at two EA locations.
One didn't work, but the other did. So my success rate is 50%.
From the reports I've seen, the EA chargers on the west coast tend to work well, so maybe it's a regional thing.

 

[Earl]

I've had a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter that I used to, on occasion try at a public station. I always considered it an experiment and was mostly disappointed in their poor reliability.
I did get by for about a 1 year period where I was regularly working out of town in a place where the choice was a 20 minute drive out of the way to a Supercharger or a CHAdeMO that was fairly close to where I was staying. It did work but not conveniently.
Recently, I've given up even trying CHAdeMO stations since, other than EVgo and Chargepoint, who have RFID key tags, they take a long time to get working if they even do.
Maybe, if I the CCS hardware becomes available and I can get an adapter, we'll start trying again since most EA sites have at least 4 stations, increasing the probability of one working.
I always advise that CCS cars are only good for local use and the occasional short out-of-town trip if one is ambitious and there are a lot of options in the area.

 

[Watts_Up]

I’m probably going to get a plaid instead. Still a small screen in the back. Good enough.

I added a user profile that I called 'Camp Mode' to move in one click the driver seat all the way toward the steering wheel.
So then I can easily access the main screen from the back seat, and I use my phone app to control the sound volume.

 

[cwerdna]

I can't say I've made a ton of road trips, in general, but I've never had a Tesla and have made road trips in CCS cars. Went from the Bay Area to So Cal in Dec 2021 then back and was fine. There's plenty of CCS charging on highway 99. Did about 1000 miles total that trip. Most of my DC FC juice was free thanks to New Electric Vehicle Fast Chargers Now Available Along State Highways in Central California | Caltrans + a Bakerfield free DC FC (broken now).

I had to drive the '22 Niro EV I leased at end of Jan 2022 from Carlsbad to the Bay Area (450 miles, one way). I bumped into rhuber at my 1st charging stop (paid). Was fine. Also took highway 99. The next two DC FC stops were free.

I just returned last night from an over 1100 mile trip to go from Bay Area, to Los Angeles then staying in Lompoc to see Santa Barbara, Solvang, a SpaceX launch from Vandenberg SFB and Hearst Castle. I got free L2 juice from a bunch of places (offices of my company in So Cal that I dropped by to see), a shopping mall I was at, Hearst Castle visitor center, etc. I got free Electrify America DC FC juice at 3 different sites (2 on the way back) as I posted at Electrify America Complementary Session Check-in. '22 Niro EV doesn't come with any free DC FC juice.

I took highway 99 down to So Cal and 101 back up. Because I got to full at Hearst Castle visitor center (I did pay for and take their tour + watch their movie), it looked like I might've been able to get home w/o DC FCing once (would've been easier to if it weren't cold and rainy), but I didn't want to take a chance so I did stop at Harden Ranch to try Harden Ranch Plaza | PlugShare. It was working but it was only putting out 10 kW instead of maybe 17 to 24 kW. I used this before years ago. For kicks, I went to Harden Ranch Plaza - Walmart | PlugShare and lo and behold, 2 of 4 units were showing complimentary session. If you ever see that on EA, just plug right in. It'll start by itself and the juice will be free. Don't use their app, credit card, NFC or anything. This was also my 1st chance to see EA's next gen units. These were Signet dispensers.

If it weren't free, I'd have probably gone to Gilroy Premium Outlets (3) | PlugShare to get a bit of juice. I never anticipated receiving free EA juice on the way back.

Of course, I use Plugshare and some DC FCs were down (but they had low Plugshare rating and not positive recent reviews, so I'm not surprised) but I wasn't stuck. But, I'm in CA. For sure there are DC FC deserts in the US and places where there are few/no nearby backups on a given route. I'm fairly sure there's even some of that in CA.

I take highway 99 between the Bay Area and So Cal vs. the typical route of highway 5 for ICEVs since there are WAY more CCS (and CHAdeMo) DC FC choices on 99 and thus way more backups. Some sites on 5 are problematic and can have many units down or all down. If many are down, there'd be a huge line or one an have some serious range anxiety due to lack of backups vs 99.

A Chevrolet Bolt EV Set a Cannonball Run Record and No One Noticed | Torque News made it across the US.

 

[Watts_Up]

I can't say I've made a ton of road trips, in general, but I've never had a Tesla and have made road trips in CCS cars.

Could you mention which EV you are driving, and in particular
describe how the Supercharging network was integrated within the car?

With Tesla you just need to enter the final destination and the car displays then:
- the location of the Superchargers you will have to use,
- and about 20 miles before reaching each charger, the car will automatically pre-heat the battery.

I tested a VW ID.4 and the sales representative told me that
I will have to use a separate App on my phone which seems not so practical.

 

[cwerdna]

Could you mention which EV you are driving, and in particular
descibe how the Supercharging netwok was integrated within the car?

With Tesla you just need to enter the final destination and the car displays then:
- the location of the Superchargers you will have to use,
- and about 20 miles before reaching the charger, the car will automatically pe-heat the battery.

I tested a VW ID.4 and the sales representative told me that
I will have to use a separate App on my phone which seems not so desireable.

Former '19 Bolt and '22 Niro EV.

As for Supercharger network, that's n/a. That won't work on non-Teslas in the US anyway. Non-Tesla consumer BEVs in the US for DC FCing have to either use CCS1 or CHAdeMO. Those aren't "Supercharger".

I planned it all manually (ABRP, Plugshare + manual planning). My Chevrolet app had some planner but I never used it as it was a dumpster fire of an app (besides being super awkward to use on my phone) and I didn't trust its data anyway. I also planned to use free DC FCs as much as I could, not what ABRP, My Chevrolet, etc. suggested.

So, I've used ABRP as a rough guide but usually ignored it and hit DC FCs that were convenient or free (New Electric Vehicle Fast Chargers Now Available Along State Highways in Central California | Caltrans, Strata Federal Credit Union | PlugShare was free in 2021 but now broken) or cheap or cheaper. Of course, I checked Plugshare first for all the sites I planned to use. For me, free was 1st choice, and EA was my usual choice (31 cents per kWh on Pass+) and other cheap ones that I heard of.

Madera Maintenance Station | PlugShare is a favorite and I've used it each time I've passed that area. It's never let me down. District 06 Office | PlugShare I've always skipped since it fell victim to copper thieves and is broken.

Delano Maintenance Station | PlugShare was free (used before but was broken this time. I tried). So, I backtracked to Denny's Delano | PlugShare (which I figured I might need to) and that's super cheap at only $2 per hour for DC FC. Came out to under 5.7 cents per kWh and would've been cheaper if I didn't charge so high into my car's taper.

For Niro EV, beats me if it has a planner. I also wouldn't trust it.

Bolt has no means to trigger pre-heating of battery for faster DC FCing. I'm not aware of any on Niro EV either.

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, there's a crazy guy who recently did a road trip: Sacramento to San Diego and back using his i-MiEV (62 mile EPA range when new and has CHAdeMO). I'll try to post some of his Plugshare check-ins.

TonyWilliams did BC2BC Mexico to Canada via Electric Highway June 12-20, 2012 - My Nissan Leaf Forum in a Leaf in 2012 when there was almost no CHAdeMO charging in CA.

Back to my comment of "For me, free was 1st choice, and EA was my usual choice (31 cents per kWh on Pass+) and other cheap ones that I heard of", EVgo and other networks were fallbacks as EVgo is expensive and there are some DC FCs along CA highways that are expensive. Examples:
Industrial St Parking Lot | PlugShare was free at the beginning. Have used it when it was free but now it's 43 cents per kWh, so it would be a total fallback, not a primary choice.

Denny's | PlugShare IIRC is actually more expensive than stated in (crowdsourced) Plugshare. I'd much rather pay 31 cents per kWh at Bakersfield Electrify America than that.

Then, as long as I could make it up the over 4100 ft high climb (Tejon Pass - Wikipedia), on the way, down, I could use Tejon Pass Rest Area - Southbound | PlugShare (free). I did use that site this time and fortunately, 3 CCS DC FCs were working instead of 1 (for ages, 3 of 4 were broken).

EVgo pricing kinda unpredictable and will generally be >31 cents per kWh unless you pay for a $12.99/mo plan: EV Time of Use Charging Costs: Pricing and Plan for EV Charging. I would've been using regions CA - Bay Area, LA and Other.

If you aren't familiar w/highway 99 in CA, check Plugshare for that highway between Saramento and Bakersfield, filtering by CCS/SAE Combo plugs.

 

[Watts_Up]

@cwerdna what you describe was my experience using CCS between San Francisco and Seattle last summer.
The CCS Tesla adapter from Korea was newly available and it was a great subject of discussion at the time so I wanted to try it.

I was using Electrify America with a monthly plan of $0.34 per kWh anytime,
while Tesla Superchargers would have been around $0.50 during peak hours and around $0.25 off peak.

I was not able to pre-heat the battery so charging was mostly around 50 kW.
So I arrived very late in Seattle and all the restaurants around my hotel were already closed.

On my way back, I just used the Tesla Supercharger network and the FSD Autopilot,
and it was so relaxing and took a shorter time compared to my previous CCS experience.

I guess I will keep my CCS adapter when travelling in areas with few Tesla Superchargers.

About free DC FC, I would recommend looking at Volta which starts to provide free 50 kW DC FC for 30 minutes.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm aware of Volta. I've used some of their free L2's in the Bay Area + So Cal but there aren't a ton of free DC FCs (esp. working and available ones). I don't recall any along the corridors I was traveling on. (I don't live in the city of SF.)

Minor point of correction, Pricing and Plans for EV Charging | Electrify America has always been 31 cents per kWh for Pass+ members in per kWh areas ever since they began offering per kWh pricing. Years ago, EA was time-based only.

 

[OldEVDude]

I've been driving a Model Y for about 30,000 miles and have had a CCS adapter for the last six months.

Only once in all that time did have I had a problem with a Tesla Supercharger. Interestingly, that was last week. The car had trouble connecting to a particular plug, so I moved to a different one and all was well. (It may have had something to do with the -5 F weather...)

With CCS, on the other hand, I have frequently had problems. Charging stations that would not take my credit card (while the one next to it would), stations that were just not functioning, stations that were rated for 350 kW but would only put out 85kW, etc. In the MI/OH/PA/MD/VA/DC area where I drive there are a decent number of CCS stations, so locations aren't a problem. But ease of use and reliability are definitely problems.

Pilots who fly under instrument flight rules plan for enough fuel to make it to the primary destination, then to an alternate destination, and 45 minutes beyond that (a rule that saved me more than once in my flying days). If you have to rely on CCS I would adopt a similar rule (enough range to get to the first CCS station, from there to the next CCS station, and some number of miles beyond that). That way you won't find yourself at the mercy of a particular CCS location.

 

[cwerdna]

With CCS, on the other hand, I have frequently had problems. Charging stations that would not take my credit card (while the one next to it would), stations that were just not functioning, stations that were rated for 350 kW but would only put out 85kW, etc. In the MI/OH/PA/MD/VA/DC area where I drive there are a decent number of CCS stations, so locations aren't a problem. But ease of use and reliability are definitely problems.

Pilots who fly under instrument flight rules plan for enough fuel to make it to the primary destination, then to an alternate destination, and 45 minutes beyond that (a rule that saved me more than once in my flying days). If you have to rely on CCS I would adopt a similar rule (enough range to get to the first CCS station, from there to the next CCS station, and some number of miles beyond that). That way you won't find yourself at the mercy of a particular CCS location.

Don't use credit card readers. If I had a $1 for every time someone on Plugshare said the CC reader didn't work, I could have a nice side income.

Look at Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions under "about those credit card readers". Search Interview: Electrify America expects you to raise hell if chargers don’t work for financial session. It's not an EA only problem. EVgo has the same issue as do others.

I've seen network error messages on EA CC readers. At one EA site, it might've been Los Padres National Forest Headquarters | PlugShare, I think the large LCD screen said something like pass reader (for NFC) isn't working, use the app. At Harden Ranch Plaza - Walmart | PlugShare, the two stations which were in complimentary session mode (so I got free juice ), the displays on the CC readers were blank.

As for 350 kW, for those EA stations, you can generally only achieve 200+ kW with an 800+ volt system EV, which Teslas aren't. Non-800 volt cars can do ~130 to ~150 kW at best. I've seen e-tron BEVs pull up to 150 kW chargers and pull ~145 kW (IIRC).

There are temp sensors that can fail on EA stations that can cause you to be throttled to about 30 kW (see My Learnings From an EA Field Engineer - Important for...). Search 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 range and road-trip charging: Some first impressions for 32 kw.

At Westfield Culver City - North | PlugShare, some stations were showing unavailable plugs and a couple had blank LCDs, so I guess they were down. Two were showing complimentary session so I took advantage of the one I found when I arrived.

I will agree that reliability can be pretty hit or miss.

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

Guys, wife and I have owned three EVs: Bolt 2019 Premier (4/19), currently Tesla MY (11/20), and Tesla M3 SR (8/22). Have around 15,000 road trip miles on our EVs. 3,000 Bolt, the rest Tesla MY (travel back and forth AZ to Cape Cod 2X a year).

There's CCS DCFC California chargers, and then there's DCFC stations everyplace else. If one lives in CA I suspect it matters little which model EV you opt for. For the rest of us, in the rest of the nation, if you plan on doing routine road trips, you best have a Tesla. This is from my personal experience.

The Bolt on the cover of my book was from our Cape Cod to south of Tucson trip (2020). EA sucked three and a half of the six day trip. Last few days went without a hitch.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Rich

 

[theothertom]

There's CCS DCFC California chargers, and then there's DCFC stations everyplace else. If one lives in CA I suspect it matters little which model EV you opt for. For the rest of us, in the rest of the nation, if you plan on doing routine road trips, you best have a Tesla. This is from my personal experience.

That's my experience as well.

 

[ark205]

I am on the East Coast (Florida and New England). According to Plugshare the CCS DCFC in New England is tough.