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To me, WKtEC was a story of how GM made a mistake, and RotEC is a story of attempted redemption.

Didn't see RotEC yet, sounds like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. In all its strong criticism, WKtEC portrayed GM as a powerful company and that's what large companies sometimes want more than a "nice" image, see Hummer. There were thoughts, at the time, that it has aspects of being a GM promotional video in disguise, and today's decidedly pro-Volt stance appears to give substance to that view.
 
Well, you are central to the "story" so are in a position to know more than almost anyone, but also so involved that it may be a bit harder for you to know how others view what has transpired. To me, WKtEC was a story of how GM made a mistake, and RotEC is a story of attempted redemption. Perhaps if the EV1 wasn't a purpose built vehicle, with such a loyal following, it wouldn't have drawn so much more ire to GM as compared to the other manufacturers that you keep reminding us about. Also, it seems GM did a more thorough job of "erasing" the EV1 which makes people point it out, unlike the Rav4EV and RangerEV (for instance) which still have examples running here and there. The whole story could have been different if, for instance, Toyota started first, got rid of ALL of the Rav4EVs, and the protesters stopped many EV1s from going to the crusher. GM gets the lions share of the scorn for being first, and more thorough to "erase" their EV, and more-so because it was the most unique of the group.

Maybe the general press was more responsible for giving the impression that the Volt was EV1 reborn than GM itself, but it still came across that way to me.
Heck, look what I see on the pluginamerica:
http://images.pluginamerica.org/NationalPost-8jan08.pdf

Oh, I totally get why the public sees it as they do. Why they were pissed in the first place, (that's probably as much my fault as anyone's!), that the media has portrayed it as atoning for the EV1, and the advocates and grassroots folks have taken (probably somewhat rightfully) some credit for "getting" them to do the Volt. The media and advocates even have a vested interest in furthering that portrayal. I just don't think GM sees it as directly admitting that mistake; even as it's not the EV many wanted, that assumption of atonement gives them more credit than I think is due on that particular point. Most of the employees still say it was the right thing to do, though most weren't there at the time so have been fed only company lore. There are a few who have said it was a mistake, but only from a PR perspective. They don't necessarily think it shouldn't have ended, just not that way.

And the "admitted strategic blunder" was a reference to Rick Wagoner's quote that killing the EV1 was his biggest mistake during his tenure. But he too, said that he felt that way for PR reasons more than anything, and he didn't frame it as the company's mistake. Obviously some- though not all- of my former colleagues still believe it was the wrong thing to do. But the closest thing I have heard from any high-level folks to regret based on anything substantive was Larry Burns's remark that killing it was wrong not just for PR reasons, but that they'd had, and lost, a 10-year lead. But he was speaking as an individual, not on behalf of the company.

In fact, while I give the company credit for getting behind the Volt, and think it turned out to be a good PHEV, that they chose to do a PHEV at all could be read as an attempt to prove they were right about the EV1. As in, "see, we told you no one wanted an EV then, and we still don't think people want one." I've also heard several interesting stories from inside the company about that general unveiling period: both that Lutz ordered them not to show it in the first place if they weren't willing to build it, as even he knew that GM would never live down "killing" another vehicle with a plug of any kind. It was, after all, his direct email address I gave out for a few years. At the same time, I've had several employees tell me that they were totally caught off guard by the enthusiasm from the public for the concept, which suggests they weren't entirely convinced that the public would even want a PHEV- or at least, not one from them. They stepped up, but I don't know that they were entirely committed to it at first.

I hear you on mentioning the other automakers, really. And I agree that the passion over the EV1 was a main factor; I loved that little car like anyone else. GM also took the heat because they were so blunt about it, basically going from treating their drivers like gold for five years to giving them the finger. It was quite the bi-polar experience, I think. Ironically, when we were still employed, we acknowledged that the company was clearly bent on ending the program, but implored management to let us help them end it with some amount of grace. The gist of the response was "piss off, we know what we're doing."

So I get why people hate GM; it's just that I don't think Toyota is as innocent as they get credit for. Where GM was blunt, Toyota was sneaky- but they've been just as bad in different ways. They started the "you don't have to plug it in" campaign while the RAV EV was still on the market, marginalizing not just competitors' products, but their own. They tried just as hard to bury the RAV at first, they just got called on it. And while I initially gave them credit for giving in to PIA, I sat through several years of meetings where they were clearly there just for pacification purposes, and making comments about what a pain their own drivers are. I was even initially banned from those meetings, and after another PIA person pressed and pressed for a reason, he was told "well, she's from the industry; she knows when we're lying." I had called them out for exactly that in the meeting before I was banned. For five years after GM finished crushing their cars and Toyota had committed to keep the RAVs, they've continued to siphon working ones behind PIA's back and crush them at a different location on the east coast. They're doing the RAV now- and I hope they're committed, but my interaction so far suggests it's more begrudging compliance. And Bill Reinert, the head of ATV for Toyota (and the guy who takes single-handed credit for killing the first RAV) continues to run around bashing EVs, even as they're building one. Even on the new cars, Toyota has mostly been given a pass for leading with the least-electrified plug-in that's been announced to date, even with more of a lead on that technology than anyone, and before they announced the RAV. In my mind, they are to hybrids what GM was to EVs- they're just better at marketing.

So the frustration is more based on both automakers behaving contemptibly, but one never being called out on it. And I realize that many don't know the details of the Toyota story, but there are many who do, and don't care. Hence the reference to a double standard. The other automakers I'm less worried about with respect to their last programs, though Ford was no angel either. The only one I believe was remotely straightforward was Honda, who basically said from the beginning, "we're making a few hundred cars because we have to, and when the lease is over we're taking them back." Would have been nice if the motivation was better, but at least they didn't try to hide it.
 
...If the goal is to get people who are currently considering PHEVs to consider EVs, we have to keep them wanting to have the conversation so they can learn about the EVs. In my experience, the more positive framing is more effective and inviting for that. The others are more discouraging, and in some cases outright off-putting, depending on how the messenger delivers it. And I am concerned that some of those who can’t be coached into an EV also intone from the negative messaging that PHEVs aren’t good enough to bother with either...

There are different ways to look at this.
I think we are all in agreement that we would like to see as many people as possible happily driving 100% BEV/ZEVs.
I also think we are in agreement that we would rather see "pure ICE" drivers switch to some kind of plug-in hybrid (as a compromise) if they aren't practically able to get and live with a 100%BEV/ZEV.
The "purist" label starts to describe someone who is concerned that the "PHEV" option will allow too many people to "compromise" and accept a half-step rather than going full on to the 100% solution. Someone who might have "taken the plunge" into a 100% BEV/ZEV might decide that the PHEV is "good enough" and stick with it instead. Then end up burning some gas (say if they drove 60 miles between charges) that they could have avoided.
Using a previously seen "phrase of wisdom", "The perfect is the enemy of the good".
If the ZEV purist demands "100% BEV or bust", then some consumers reject the whole concept and go back to their 100% ICE car.

Another term for "purist" might be "uncompromising individual". Do we accept people who compromise to a PHEV, acknowledge their reasons, and welcome the benefits, or do we chastise them for not making more sacrifices to go all the way to the full solution?

---

By the way, my commute is just long enough, and lacks reasonable charging opportunities that I would be burning a little bit of gas every day if I was using a Volt. For that reason alone the Leaf was a better choice for me. Then the Leaf was significantly less expensive, and had more perks (like the carpool stickers). In my case it was a fairly easy choice... In a Leaf vs Volt contest the + was much stronger for the Leaf to me. Also, I had alternative ways of handling longer trips on the rare days when I need it.
It sounds like DPeilow has routine longer trips, and possibly only the ability to maintain one car, so I can accept that he is considering an Ampera. Hopefully those long trips are infrequent enough that the long highway trip MPG shortcomings of the Voltec drivetrain don't mean he would have been better off driving a plug-in Prius.
 
So I get why people hate GM; it's just that I don't think Toyota is as innocent as they get credit for...

Personally I am giving Toyota a temporary "pass" and looking the other way given their apparent support of Tesla.
It could be for PR reasons, and it could be temporary, but as long as Tesla indicates that the Toyota relationship is working well, I (as a Tesla fan) want to be supportive.

I was hopeful that "the new GM" will someday get out of the "penalty box", but I am still waiting...
 
So I get why people hate GM; it's just that I don't think Toyota is as innocent as they get credit for. Where GM was blunt, Toyota was sneaky- but they've been just as bad in different ways. They started the "you don't have to plug it in" campaign while the RAV EV was still on the market, marginalizing not just competitors' products, but their own. They tried just as hard to bury the RAV at first, they just got called on it. And while I initially gave them credit for giving in to PIA, I sat through several years of meetings where they were clearly there just for pacification purposes, and making comments about what a pain their own drivers are. I was even initially banned from those meetings, and after another PIA person pressed and pressed for a reason, he was told "well, she's from the industry; she knows when we're lying." I had called them out for exactly that in the meeting before I was banned. For five years after GM finished crushing their cars and Toyota had committed to keep the RAVs, they've continued to siphon working ones behind PIA's back and crush them at a different location on the east coast. They're doing the RAV now- and I hope they're committed, but my interaction so far suggests it's more begrudging compliance. And Bill Reinert, the head of ATV for Toyota (and the guy who takes single-handed credit for killing the first RAV) continues to run around bashing EVs, even as they're building one. Even on the new cars, Toyota has mostly been given a pass for leading with the least-electrified plug-in that's been announced to date, even with more of a lead on that technology than anyone, and before they announced the RAV. In my mind, they are to hybrids what GM was to EVs- they're just better at marketing.

So the frustration is more based on both automakers behaving contemptibly, but one never being called out on it. And I realize that many don't know the details of the Toyota story, but there are many who do, and don't care. Hence the reference to a double standard. The other automakers I'm less worried about with respect to their last programs, though Ford was no angel either. The only one I believe was remotely straightforward was Honda, who basically said from the beginning, "we're making a few hundred cars because we have to, and when the lease is over we're taking them back." Would have been nice if the motivation was better, but at least they didn't try to hide it.
This is exactly why it would be better to show your support, and reward Tesla or Nissan for all they have done by buying one of their vehicles. I realize that it would probably take a bit longer for EV adoption to occur, but there would be less of a chance of Tesla failing, which in turn could be the end of 100% electric vehicles for quite some time.
 
It could be for PR reasons, and it could be temporary, but as long as Tesla indicates that the Toyota relationship is working well, I (as a Tesla fan) want to be supportive.

I understand; I just have a different approach. I am generally supportive of any of these companies who are trying to be on a good path, I'm not trying to get people to hate Toyota. I just think that even the "worst" companies have done good things and the "best" have made mistakes, so I tend to evaluate on a more individual basis. I support Toyota, particularly for the Tesla relationship. The new RAV is fun to drive and I hope they don't mess with it too much (though I'm worried). These are good things. I also think the Prius PHV is a disappointment based on the lead they had and what they could have done, and that they've done good things too doesn't change that for me. They have a great relationship with their hybrid drivers and are great at getting their feedback, but when I was last there some weeks ago to drive the RAV, it hadn't even occurred to them to speak with even one of the older RAV EV drivers- which is both a frustrating blind spot and a missed opportunity. And so on. I have similar "pros" and "cons" for the others, including GM. And Tesla. But it also depends on the setting, and whether I'm speaking as chelsea the fan, or as an advocate. Not always mutually exclusive.
 
I am supportive of both Tesla and Nissan, of course. (I'm also a little frustrated that Nissan can't seem to get out of their own way on customer service lately.) I said a while back that if money were no object, there's be a Roadster in my driveway. I'm just not willing to write GM off because of their past either.

PS- there's not a thing I have done "for" GM that I've not offered to every other automaker, including Nissan and Tesla. Some are more receptive than others, and the interaction varies in form from one to another.
 
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I am supportive of both Tesla and Nissan, of course. (I'm also a little frustrated that Nissan can't seem to get out of their own way on customer service lately.) I said a while back that if money were no object, there's be a Roadster in my driveway. I'm just not willing to write GM off because of their past either.
The thing that worries me is the "wolf in sheeps" clothing scenario. I'm still not convinced that either Toyota, GM, and even Nissan for that matter are fully commited to plug in's. The intermediate step of "hybrids" could be extended for quite some time, if Tesla fails with their mission. That is something that would be catastrophic.
 
This is exactly why it would be better to show your support, and reward Tesla or Nissan for all they have done by buying one of their vehicles.....

After reading Chelsea's take on things here it's to me kinda cool that she does not drive an EV. Without her driving any brand, there is little (at least less) claims anyone came make about her having favoritism towards her ride.

Though it would be even more cool if she had the worlds only daily driving EV1.
 
After reading Chelsea's take on things here it's to me kinda cool that she does not drive an EV. Without her driving any brand, there is little (at least less) claims anyone came make about her having favoritism towards her ride.

Though it would be even more cool if she had the worlds only daily driving EV1.

Trust me, I wish I were driving an EV- but yes, I see that advantage too. And I fully expect that when the day comes that I can buy something I'll be judged no matter what it is.

And I'd take an EV1 back in a heartbeat. And smoke every Volt I came across- in a friendly way, of course. :)
 
Another good thing about the simplified % electrified number could be that it could directly factor on incentives.

Assuming the numbers are well calculated and established there could be things like:
$10,000 credit/rebate/discount for 100% EV
$7,500 credit/rebate/discount for 75% EV
$5,000 credit/rebate/discount for 50% EV
$2,500 credit/rebate/discount for 25% EV
etc.
That's a good concept, however I have a slightly different take. I don't think the rebate should increase, I think it should decrease as the value of the vehicle goes up and disapear entirely after a certain level. One major criticism of EV's that is constantly brought up, especially with Tesla, is that the rebate helps rich people buy toys. Most people buying Roadsters and Model S's don't really need the rebate to make the purchase. The general public sees a $7500 rebate going to purchase a $50K+ vehicle and has a problem with it. In actuality the volume of vehicles is so small that the dollar amount of the rebate program per US citizen is miniscule but the negative perception is powerful.
 
Amen. Which is part of why I don't cast them as "heroes or vilians" in my head. Even with the screw-ups, I believe that the core GM engineering team (not Chevy mktg) is currently more committed to plug-ins, and even to EVs, than Toyota. I hope I'm wrong about Toyota, and I support them for their commitment to Tesla no matter what. But if they did to the new RAV what GM did to the EV1, that they supported Tesla would not keep me from calling bs.

Also, only part of it is commitment. Building a good plug-in car has never been these companies' problem. It has always been the marketing, and the customer service, and the sales/service processes and so on. I see far more mistakes in that arena than on the cars themselves, and I am worried that it will hurt some popular companies, no matter how good their car.
 
Agreed. And I have two thoughts on that:

1) The fed tax credit on the last EV generation maxed out at the luxury tax limit. It was a different structure (10% of the MSRP) but something similar could be implemented.

2) I have been basically on a one girl crusade to get the rebate conditional on the vehicle selling at or below MSRP. The other major criticism is that the fed incentive is just being consumed by the dealer mark-up for Volts and Leaves- and tangentially to your point, those that can afford huge mark-ups don't need the incentive. The OEMs claim they have no influence due to franchise laws, though there have been exceptions that could be referenced (EV1, Saturn..) But this method wouldn't require price-fixing. Dealers could still mark vehicles up, and customers who want to be first can pay, and forgo the credit/rebate- but taxpayers wouldn't subsidize those deals.
 
I was never a Nissan customer before. Didn't think a whole lot of them. Then they built the Leaf and it was the right car at the right time. It was a "build a better mousetrap", "build it and they will come" thing. If the product is good enough people will find it in spite of whatever marketing noise is going on. I am not even a "brand neutral" kind of person, but I am willing to switch if my preferred provider (e.g.: Toyota) doesn't have what I want. Back on the whole GM/Volt thing - the situation right now would be a lot different if the Leaf hadn't come along at the same time as the Volt. More "purists" might have accepted the Volt for what it is if there weren't a "more pure" alternative available at the same time.

By the way, my offer to trade my Leaf for a Roadster still stands!

----

I am supportive of both Tesla and Nissan, of course. (I'm also a little frustrated that Nissan can't seem to get out of their own way on customer service lately.) I said a while back that if money were no object, there's be a Roadster in my driveway...

Or maybe a Nissan GT-R ?!
 
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That's a good concept, however I have a slightly different take. I don't think the rebate should increase, I think it should decrease as the value of the vehicle goes up and disapear entirely after a certain level. One major criticism of EV's that is constantly brought up, especially with Tesla, is that the rebate helps rich people buy toys. Most people buying Roadsters and Model S's don't really need the rebate to make the purchase. The general public sees a $7500 rebate going to purchase a $50K+ vehicle and has a problem with it. In actuality the volume of vehicles is so small that the dollar amount of the rebate program per US citizen is miniscule but the negative perception is powerful.

I had been thinking about that for some time, even before making the simplistic tiered rebate suggestion. Although I agree with you, I still think a simple % electrified -> rebate % still makes sense. Not every Tesla buyer has throw away money. Some people really stretch to get one, and the incentive could make a difference to them, getting more "semi average" people into a "once in a lifetime" halo car experience. On the other hand, a kWh based rebate doesn't make as much sense to me. That would reward the big, potentially less efficient vehicles. If someone wants to build a big SUV with a 100kWh pack, I would prefer it didn't get a much bigger rebate than a small efficient sedan with a 30kWh pack. If you wanted to fuss with rebate incentives other than % electrified, I would think range would make more sense as another input over kWh. That way it would at least reward efficiency more.
 
I was never a Nissan customer before. Didn't think a whole lot of them. Then they built the Leaf and it was the right car at the right time. Back on the whole GM/Volt thing - the situation right now would be a lot different if the Leaf hadn't come along at the same time as the Volt. More "purists" might have accepted the Volt for what it is if there weren't a "more pure" alternative available at the same time.

Agree on better mousetrap. On both EV1 and Volt, the majority of customers were not GM drivers before. I haven't seen a breakdown for Nissan.

That's probably true. I think GM's history would have followed them some no matter what, but without the Leaf, they each also wouldn't be trying to compare themselves to each other. Similarly if there were more than just two vehicles, each would be more likely to compare to the other cars in their category. I do think that's part of why we're seeing some media and marketing folks compare the Cadillac ELR with Model S and Fisker- they're different in drivetrain, but all in that "luxury" class. Until we get more plug-in models, I don't think we're going to be able to control some of this.

However, I think GM's "story" to tell for this upcoming year is about Volt vs Prius, and that some of the Leaf stuff will fade. I hope. And same with Leaf, once Focus is out.
 
I had been thinking about that for some time, even before making the simplistic tiered rebate suggestion. Although I agree with you, I still think a simple % electrified -> rebate % still makes sense. Not every Tesla buyer has throw away money. Some people really stretch to get one, and the incentive could make a difference to them, getting more "semi average" people into a "once in a lifetime" halo car experience. On the other hand, a kWh based rebate doesn't make as much sense to me. That would reward the big, potentially less efficient vehicles. If someone wants to build a big SUV with a 100kWh pack, I would prefer it didn't get a much bigger rebate than a small efficient sedan with a 30kWh pack. If you wanted to fuss with rebate incentives other than % electrified, I would think range would make more sense as another input over kWh. That way it would at least reward efficiency more.

That's the same effect as measuring mileage. The challenge is that not everyone will buy a small or minimally-powered car. It's true that those who will, could suck up a lot of plug-ins, but it's useful for "middle America" to see that considering the plug does not mean driving a little car. At the same time, we've yet to see an automaker exploit that scheme- at least, not in my book. We're seeing some bigger cars and small crossover concepts, but OEMs know that the bigger the vehicle, the more battery is required, adding huge cost. And that there's some interest in hybrid SUVs, but a lot of the people buying larger vehicles aren't as efficiency or environmentally minded to begin with, so they're less likely to pay the incremental cost required.